Churchill arms no.4 mk.1 |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Yep its a Savage originally.
Looking at the cross bolt in the rear of the forend I wonder if its not been upgraded to the Mk2 style trigger when being sported? |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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teleposer
Newbie Joined: November 07 2015 Location: BC Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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That's great that I know the maker. Was wondering who made it originally.
Spoke to the gun room manager at Churchill. Unfortunately they have lost a lot of records either to damage or just from them being destroyed because of ownership changes etc. so my gun is not in their records. But, he says I should send some pictures and he will see what he can do to evaluate it. Thanks for the info everyone. Will let you know when I hear back. |
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W.R.Buchanan
Senior Member Joined: September 21 2014 Location: Ojai CA Status: Offline Points: 373 |
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As I said above, simply refinishing the stock and touching up the bluing can have a dramatic effect on the looks of that gun. It would also increase the value.
Go here,,, and look at the before and after pictures of my gun. It really isn't that hard to do and if you can work a file and sandpaper, you can handle it. Fortunately Churchill Surplus Sporters are considerably rarer that PH, or Gibbs guns, so there may be some hidden value there as well. I doubted that they would have any record of the gun simply because it was not a "Best Quality Gun." But the Roll Mark on the barrel tells the story of who made it, and the buttplate is just gravy meaning it hasn't been altered. It just needs some TLC. Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Tony
Moderator Group Moderator Joined: April 18 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3256 |
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Whatever you do don't use sandpaper or a file on the rifle you'll ruin it and it's too rare an example to the bugger up!!!!!!!! It may NOT be a bespoke rifle, you'll probably find that Churchill have a log of all the guns the made up going back to day 1 of the business starting. It's a matter of pride that they can trace a rifle back to date of manufacture and who it was made for. Parker Hale used enfield and mauser actions for their run of the mill rifles and they are still excellent rifles but a Churchill is "class."
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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)
“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
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BMP
Senior Member Joined: October 25 2015 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 133 |
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Very nice! Thanks for the pics!
Brad
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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA |
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W.R.Buchanan
Senior Member Joined: September 21 2014 Location: Ojai CA Status: Offline Points: 373 |
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Tony: Bubba should not do anything to a gun, but careful fairing of the existing finish can be done by even a novice refinisher. It really isn't that hard to do. And it will definitely make the gun look better.
Taping the Checkering so it doesn't get touched, and sanding with 400 grit sandpaper to smooth the finish and then reapplying an oil finish like Tru Oil takes only a few hours. Using a tooth brush to clean out the checkering is the final stroke. Refinishing this gun will not alter it's value at all as it is not some high class rifle. It will simply make it look better. It is a working gun. You can tell that by the condition it is in now. It has been worked. He lives in British Columbia, the gun came from BC, and 99.9% of the people who saw it would never think it was anymore than that. The person who looked at this gun and had some knowledge would conclude that it was on par with a PH gun of similar quality. Which it is. In this case the fact that Churchill repurposed a Military Rifle is no more significant than Parker Hale doing it. All of the English Makers that made these guns were merely trying to keep the doors open after the War and up thru the 60's when things were tough. We have a saying ,,, "It is, what it is." Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Pukka Bundook
Senior Member Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1369 |
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Tony,
Your forgot Boss & Co when you mentioned top flight English makers, :-) Randy, I have had a Churchill or two through my hands, and they were these converted military types, not high -end at all, but still very serviceable arms. This rifle in question fits this category very well. After the war Churchill converted many of these as did P-H.. I think they may have got the stock blanks from the same source. You are dead right about them doing it to keep the doors open after the War! Cheers, Richard.
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teleposer
Newbie Joined: November 07 2015 Location: BC Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Thanks again everyone for the information. I am guessing it was probably made in '43? I did post the serial # on here so not sure if that is helpful for that. Really I am brand new to the world of Enfields. I was borrowing my father in laws sporterized p17 for a while and I really enjoyed shooting it. When I saw this one, I figured it would at least be a great 'truck gun'. My dream is to own an untouched enfield one day, but they are getting pretty pricey at the gun shows from what I have seen.
Like I mentioned earlier, I spoke to the gun room manager at Churchill in England. He was apologetic about not having records and admitted that some records had been lost or destroyed with ownership of the company changing over the years. But he asked that I send him some pictures and he can attempt to shed some more light on its value/history. Worth the effort of an email I figure! Knowing that its a Churchill, and that apparently there are not a lot around out in these parts, I probably will re-finish the wood one day and it will just be a nice conversation piece in my safe. But a refinish is something that will not be taken lightly. Also, as a hunter I will hunt with it one day, since that is why it was probably originally purchased by its original owner. My main hunting rifle right now is a 1954 Remington 760 gamemaster in .35rem. There is something, to me anyways, about holding a piece of history in your hands and imagining what kind of life it had before it came to me. When I hear from Churchill I will let you all know what they tell me. So far this rifle has been the best hundred bucks I have ever spent! Thanks again everyone for all the advice and information. This probably won't be my last enfield (i'd love to find one in 30-06). I look forward to more conversations about these fine pieces of history. -cam |
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Tony
Moderator Group Moderator Joined: April 18 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3256 |
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All of the English Makers that made these guns were merely trying to keep the doors open after the War and up thru the 60's when things were tough. We have a saying ,,, "It is, what it is." Randy [/QUOTE]Yes it is what it is! A class rifle made by a class Gunmaker. As to post war austerity I'm fully aware of how things were in those days. Rationing stopped in 1954 when I was 6 nearly 7 years old., up to then I'd never seen a banana much less eaten 1, my ma and gran worked wonders with very little to keep us fed! |
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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)
“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
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W.R.Buchanan
Senior Member Joined: September 21 2014 Location: Ojai CA Status: Offline Points: 373 |
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$100 ? You done good! Mine cost $180 and $200 and neither was as good as yours.Keep digging and learning. There is a lot to know about Enfield Rifles and this place is a good place to find out about them.
Tony, You've got about years on me, I was born in 1949. Things weren't as bad here after the war as they were in the UK. We had an Ocean between us and the real war so a lot of what you endured was never a factor here. We also had more resources than England. The thing about wars is they seldom choose who the victims will be in the end, and cleaning up the mess afterwards always takes along time. Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Tony
Moderator Group Moderator Joined: April 18 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3256 |
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I'm fully aware of the difference in situation between the USA and the UK at that time and since! Especially the UK being led by corrupt politicians on both sides of the pond dragging us into wars not of our making. I'm the third generation to have served my country and I'll be the last! My son isn't going to be a moving target in somebody elses war over oil and power and there are a lot of ex squaddies who feel the same way as I do. Enough is enough!
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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)
“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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"Fortunately Churchill Surplus Sporters are considerably rarer that PH,
or Gibbs guns, so there may be some hidden value there as well."
I think you're confusing the US knockoff company "Gibbs Rifle Company" who did those conversions here in the U.S. as a spin off of Val Forgetts "Navy Arms" company, with these guys who were the originals I'm thinking of. 2 Very, very different companies. http://www.gibbsrifle.com/ http://www.gibbsgunmakers.com/ |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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W.R.Buchanan
Senior Member Joined: September 21 2014 Location: Ojai CA Status: Offline Points: 373 |
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Shamu: definitely the first one.
Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Nope!
That's the cheap & cheesy American knock off. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Pukka Bundook
Senior Member Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1369 |
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Yes, Shamu,
the English Gibbs are very high -end and Much rarer than P-H. Or this type of Churchill work.
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W.R.Buchanan
Senior Member Joined: September 21 2014 Location: Ojai CA Status: Offline Points: 373 |
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What I said was that the Cheap Churchill knockoffs were somewhat rarer than the cheap PH knockoffs. This is splitting hairs to be sure, as none of this matters. He paid $100 for the gun and got his moneys worth for sure.
Everyone was all hopped up that this might be a Bespoke Rifle, and it isn't. No big deal and he realizes it's not a Gold Doubloon, but he will certainly get $100 worth of use shooting the gun, which is what it was made for in the first place. Calm settles in.... Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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