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First time load range report.

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Shamu View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 05 2013 at 6:42am
I recently found a few boxes of the Sierra 174 Gr .311" Match-Kings so I thought I'd document the progress (or lack of it)) as I try making up a working load for it.

My bore has no problem with boat-tails, just to get that out of the way. Nor does it have an oversize dimension, its really the opposite quite tight. I can use the .3105" 174 Gr boat-tails for the Nagants with good results.

So I loaded up a small lot of the Match-Kings with H335, the powder that I'm currently working with as its all I can find round here.

I chronographed them to 2350 FPS +/- 12 @ 10 feet, so I'd call that a decent velocity & spread.

However shooting for group is a different game entirely. Its no that they're horrible, but they definitely have groups double the size of my 150 Gr loads, so, obviously more work is needed, & maybe even a different (gulp) powder.Ouch

So, first the good news, here's the test setup, benched & bagged here's the gratuitous picture.


Now for the not so good news, the target!

The numbered dots are the bullet strikes in order generated from my ballistics program. 2 warming & fouling shots were fired first as were a couple of 3-round groups to re sight for the new load. They were dead bang on the bull @ 100 Yds. then this happened. Horizontal shifting & vertical stringing creating a 4" group off to the right.


Oh well, back to the drawing board.Confused


Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2013 at 11:58pm
Update on this project.

I ran a small batch at 37.7 Gr & there was some improvement, but it was still not what I was looking for so I went a stage further. The velocities had settled down quite a bit, but the group had opened up even more to 4 1/2"Embarrassed

I've heard from several reloaders that H 335 likes pressure to run well, so I did a couple of work up loads at 38.0 Gr & 38.3 Gr. Max is listed at 39.0 gr for an SIE 180 Gr so I'm still in sane load densities.
Other than the charge weight change I did nothing different from the target shown above.

The 38.0 Gr load showed a marked improvement over several groups, velocity was more consistent & there were less "flyers" for velocity as well. This load ran 2264~2377 velocity for an average of 2339 (all @ 10') & the group size dropped from the horrible 3.11" to 2.68.

Then the best of all the 38.3 Gr load really shone!
2373 for an average & with a spread of only 33.1 FPS. The group shrunk to a sweet 1.40" for 5 shots.



I have no idea why the ballistics program thinks I'm using HiSkor 700 powder? It was set up for H335 don't for gods sake try to load .303 Brit with 38.3 Gr of Hi Skor 700 unless you want to turn your rifle into a "nukular" bomb!Shocked

If I'm gong to use H335 in the .303 with those Sierra 174 GR Match-kings this is going to be my load! I guess the powder really does like some pressure for consistency! I'm thinking also that the often reported Hodgdon powder's "sudden pressure jumps" is coming into play here as well. My guess is the early 37.7 gr load was right on the cusp for one, explaining the sudden changes in velocity as it went from high to low being right on the cusp of the sudden change?

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2013 at 5:10am
That looks much better. Thanks for sharing this info Shamu.
I am also using Sierra Match-kings; I think I will try and slow down the velocity of my loads, to see if I can tighten the groups up a bit. I had been aiming at 2440 Fps and trying to get a consistent speed. My load is giving 2450 average on my last test, 10 rounds but not happy with the group size and a couple of flyers. I will try and bring it down to the speed you have here and see if it works with my rifle and load. I am using Tubal 3000 so obviously will not be the same load data, but at 39,3 grains I am around the standard of 2440Fps, which is a bit surprising as the max load data shows 41grains. Which I think would be too fast considering what I'm seeing with 39,3! 
Obviously there are so many variables but it does make it interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2013 at 3:02pm
thanks - i have a can of hiscore 700 , was about to use it ....just kidding , about using it i mean , i do have that can
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2013 at 9:01pm
There used to be an old rule of thumb that the best performance for accuracy was usually about 100 FPS slower than max. This seems to bear out that idea, but I don't know how universal it is. I have to try the H335 with some 150 Gr bullets now & see if the idea translates well, or even at all!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2013 at 8:04am
That's a mighty fine looking rifle!  Not bad shooting either.

Shamu, have you ever tried H4350?  Or Varget?  I use H4350 (sold as AR2209 in my parts) and so far have had very good results.  I haven't chrongraphed it but I am loading way below max.  Max for H4350 is 48 grs compressed for a velocity of 2500 fps and a pressure of 43,800 CUP using a 180 gr Sierra SP bullet.  H4350 produced very good accuracy in my 25-303 too.

My load is 46.3 gr H4350 under a 180gr PRVI bullet for my two-groove.

In the past I used a powder called MR200 and with that I chronographed a velocity of 820 ± 1 m/s (2690 ± 3¼ fps) which was close to max..  Accuracy was 1¼ MOA for ten shots (with scope).  That powder is similar to Varget (but without the temperature insensitivity).  The same powder with a 180 gr Speer bullet produced the same accuracy with velocity of 730 m/s (2395 fps).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2013 at 8:59pm
I haven't tried either I'm afraid. I really prefer to use the older single base powders as they seem to fill the bigger old case better with the charge weights I like to run.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2013 at 10:54pm
Your experiment matches the results I get with Vhit 140. Top load is 41.7 grains I use 41 grains behind the sierra 174 grain reducing the load by 0.7 of a grain to 41 tightened the groups up nicely. Hawkeye aka Alex my lad can consistantly hit the bull at 200 yards on open sights and manages to slap them all in the black at 600 yards again with open sights. It's annoying when you have to let the guide dog shoot for you because your eyes aren't as good as they used to be. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 4:29am
Well, you don't seem to have anything to fix so .... Does H335 fill the case? H4350 fills the case at below max charge, which is why I chose it over Varget.  It's also a top performer of the Hodgdon line of powders second only to BL-C(2) and I have no need to fix anything.

I must say I haven't 'developed' a load.  I chose the velocity I wanted and loaded accordingly and it shot well - 1 MOA at 100m.  Then I decided I needed more velocity so I aimed for 2400 fps which called for 46.3 grs of powder and gave that a test and it was pretty accurate so I stayed right there.  I found velocity to be adequate without being excessive on game.  Pressure signs are moderate - if my rifle behaves like the test barrel then it should be around 41,600 CUP (which it won't be).  One simply cannot overload the case with H4350.  My incident was with the first load which allowed the bullet to be pushed back visibly.

When I can find some more bullets I will do some serious accuracy tests and do some chronographing.  There are bullets out there but I want to stay with what I know works in my rifle, that being PRVI.

On a side note, although this rifle is accurate I did find it sensitive to hold.  I then bedded the fore-end (the barrel is free floating) and that seemed to sort that problem out.  Oh, this is a sporter with scope - like I could shoot MOA with iron sights!Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 4:37am
I have yet to get the "best" load with the 150 Gr bullets sorted out. That's a project for warmer weather though.

My best effort so far was 40.5 Gr of H335 & a CCI # 200 primer. It gave me a (fairly mild) 2625 FPS @ 10', but I think I can get the spread & deviations down a bit.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 11:23am
Mild 150gr loads are rather pleasant to shoot.

Do you have more photo's of that rifle?  (Actually, I think you may have posted them before).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 10:42pm
Yeah, I like the 150 grainers at around 25~2600FPS. Anything more seems to be hotroddding at the cost of accuracy. I also run a .308, so that's where I do the top end loads as the gas operated rifle seems to like them "spicy"!

Pictures, why, funny you should ask, yes, I do have one or twoClap









Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2014 at 2:39am
that is one really beautiful rifle , im always a tad envious when you show it , 

every time i see that rifle it reminds me of the "other Cno7 and the charnwood 762 conversion"  i once owned , both were twins in appearance to your no4 right down to the cheek rests and scope , i made a conscious decision back when to sell/trade and only at moments like this do i regret at all , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2014 at 5:12am
I've always wanted a real brand spankin' new (it's MINE Yippee, Yahooie!) #4 so when this one turned up I was on it so fast my knuckles were sore for a week.Pinch

Sadly the original owner, who was a shooting friend of mine, passed away which is how I got it. I think he'd have been thrilled to see it being put back to work.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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i agree , and no one could do him more homage than you sir in seeing that his desire is fulfilled , it makes the photos all that more meaningful as well - we get to enjoy it too ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2014 at 11:29am
I keep coming back to look at those pictures! LOL

Just how stable is that scope mount?  What make is it?
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