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W.R.Buchanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 4:54pm
The one big difference I am seeing in these pictures is the Commercial Rifles all seem to have a Pistol Grip Buttstocks.
 
The OP's gun doesn't, as did either of my guns.
 
My #4 Mk1* Long Branch has a 22"barrel a Parker Hale Ramp Front Sight a shortened Fore End and no upper handguard  which made it a PH "Deluxe Sporter." Now that it has been restocked and rebored to .35-303,,,It is a Buchanan Precision Machine Super Deluxe Sporter in .35-303 caliber. Tongue
 
My #4 Mk1 BSA also was missing the top wood and front sight protector and the Fore End was cut behind the mid barrel band. This may or may not be a PH "Standard Sporter."  However it could just as easily have been someone's Home Made Sporter as the changes were pretty basic and really just about anyone could do them. I made it my own by subjecting it to complete disassembly and refinishing/refitting of everything. It now kind of looks like a L39A1 as long as you don't look too close, or know what you are looking at.
 
The OP's gun is a #1 and has the original buttstock, and it appears to have had the "Rear Sight Protector Ears," cutoff,,,which leads me to believe it is a Basic Home Brewed Sporter.  It is what it is.
 
I personally wouldn't be too concerned with it's exact lineage, but would try to get it to shoot Cast Boolits well.  Any cosmetic work you wished to do should really be done after you have established that the gun actually shoots well enough to mess with.
 
If the bore is dark and it won't group anything, then overhauling it is a waste of time and money.  Nobody wants a gun that looks good but won't shoot worth a dime. It could be rebored to a larger caliber but then it is a sporter for sure,,, no going back then.
 
You've all heard Townsend Whelen's saying ,,, "Only Accurate Rifles are interesting."
 
Well that's kind of what I'm talking about.
 
Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 7:45pm
There is a lot of 'black magic' to bedding a Sht.LE. Basically free floating from the barrel reinforce up to the nosecap.

I am not a magician so I can't help much, but there are a number of resources to study on acurising the Lee Enfield. 1 moa groups at 100 yards is the standard.
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W.R.Buchanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2015 at 7:13pm
So I was over at the Canadian Gun Nutz site and this page from a Parker Hale Catalog showed up.
 
Low and behold it appears to look exactly like the OP's gun?
 
What do you think?
 
Randy
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2015 at 8:10pm
Parker Hale patched the woodwork to eliminate the inletting for the rear sight protector and plugged the screw hole underneath, or with higher grade rifles, replaced the forearm with a new sporter unit. The OP's rifle has the protector cut off above the woodline. 

I think it is a home spun modification to sporter the forearm, not a Parker Hale jobby.

The proof marks on the barrel reinforce are post 1956. There will be a date code mark in amongst those stamps to tell us exactly when it was sold through the Brit gun trade. 

There are thousands of home made sporters where the wood has been cut off just ahead of the inner barrel band and the wood slimmed down. It's classic! Parker Hale did the much the same but with a higher degree of workmanship.

It is a commercial made rifle, yes, but it is not a commercial made sporter. In my mind it is home made.
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W.R.Buchanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2015 at 9:45am
Englishman-ca:   I agree with everything you said except the "higher degree of workmanship" part.
 
I have seen several PH "low grade sporters",  and actually own one.  The front sight was soldered on my "Deluxe Sporter"  with barrel cut to22",,,  about 5 degrees off kilter.  This was not done by Bubba it was done by a PH employee when the gun are modified by them.
 
I went to the SCI Show in Vegas earlier this year and talked to a Brit who was a salesman for the Nicholas Holt gun shop.  We talked extensively about British Sporting Rifles and I steered the conversation to the Enfield conversions.   When I told him about the Front sight on my gun he laughed and told me that he had seen far worse and especially in the low grade conversions which were made from the lowest grade Ex-Military guns PH bought after the war.
 
The higher grade guns they produced were put together by the better smiths at the firm. The lower grade stuff, like my gun, were assembled by the less qualified employees and the QC was not all that. More emphasis on production that absolute quality for those guns.
 
Those guns were made at a time when Britain was recovering from WWII and things were tight.  The guns were being produced from surplus and being exported to the US and Canada to be sold as everyday working guns that a guy in the 1950's could put meat on the table with and let bang around in his Pickup Truck, Car or Dog Sled.  Basically a way to Recycle War Time Production into the civilian market, and generate some cash flow for the company.
 
The main purpose of these guns was to keep Parker Hale afloat during hard times. As things improved so did the quality of the products and as time progressed new models like the Supreme came out .  The generic low grade guns were just that,,, "Low Grade." Also only the best specimens were made into the better grade guns.  Guns like the Standard, and Deluxe #4's and #1's were made from the more beat up examples.  The wood was cut down and refinished, and front sling swivel added and out the door they went. I would bet that the Deluxe Rifles with 22" barrels were made from guns that had excessive muzzle wear, since cutting off 3" would generally fix that problem.
 
My #4 Mk1* Long Branch was such a gun.
 
All that said, the OP's gun could be a" PH Replica" made by some guy in his garage, or who knows what this late in the game.  It sure looks like the one on the catalog page.  I now have most all of those catalog pages, and just waiting for people to post more so I can capture them for future use.
 
Randy
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2015 at 12:03pm
Thanks for that W.R.B., I stumble across many sporters here in northern Ontario. Seems that there was at least one or two in every huntcamp and cabin. Now that a new generation has moved in to enjoy the countryside, these old meat getters end up being sold off as the youngsters often want absolutely nothing to do with guns, even one that has been in the family for generations.

I do come across sporters often with 'Surrey' or 'Essex' roll stamped onto the top of the barrel. Any idea as to who this might have been, modifying No.1 and No.4 rifles into sporters? They are quite common and all have brit commercial nitro proof markings. Utility grade for sure, but all have nice full length barrels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2015 at 3:28pm
No idea on the Surrey or Essex stamps.  I am by no means and expert on these guns and have learned virtually everything in the last year from sources here and other websites, as well as my own research and talking to people like the Salesman from Nicholas Holt. Some people have actually been there and done that.  They are who you seek.
This guy had been in the gun business for 40+ years in England and worked at the high end shops.  I'm sure he knew a lot more than I was able to extract from him during our brief conversation of 20 minutes.
 
But he did tell me how and why these guns were built.
 
I know that everything he told me made sense and seems to bare up under closer examination.
 
This is by no means gospel, but it is as good a story as I have been able to come up with.  WE are talking 60+ years ago and the further down the road we get the more obscure the truth becomes.
 
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2015 at 4:24pm
I have a "sporter" with a SURREY stamp on it..& a CHURCHILL but plate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2015 at 6:34pm
I have a library of reference books, but most of my knowledge comes from other collectors and from handling many, many rifles. I never pass up the opportunity to check out details and markings on even the most dilapidated clunker or butchered sporter. I take notes. I make sketches and recent years take digital photographs.

Yes, miss-information can get passed along, and if repeated enough times, it gets credibility.

I have an idea about these Essex and Surrey marked barrel sporters, but still ask. I still am forming my opinion on them.

I believe that they were converted by the British gun trade in the 1960s for sale in north america. Many I have seen are in very good mechanical condition with an FTR replaced barrel from the 1950s. At first I thought that I had a home made sporter in my hands, but then I handled a second, and a third, and many more a pattern started to show.

I guess that sporters could be collectable in their own right. I know of a couple of collectors with Lee Speeds and custom made rifles by such as Greener, Parker Hale, Webley (yes, Webley!). I have several sporters too, albeit 'low end military conversions' but my interest is in their markings and they do often get used as deer guns.

The OPs rifle is a home spun sporter. Still a very interesting rifle. The drawback to being a commercial product is that it doesn't carry the multitude of government view marks that can read like a book on some martial rifles.

Certainly in my mind, it is the history behind each one of these that fascinates me and how they came to be where they are today. Some collectors might prize a gunslinger's six shooter that has half a dozen notches carved in the grips. I know that some of these rifles would simply have too many notches to count. They get my reverence and respect, even as a home made sporter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2015 at 5:00pm
hmm?.
I have a 1937 BSA with the royal cypher.
yet it is blued and not painted.
and has all civilian proofs and Iraqi provenance.
Skennerton states that BSA stopped stamping Royal cyphers in '37(?).
But supposedly resumed stamping them  when the war began?
 
Somebody has suggested that its part of an Iraqi contract that was filled during the late 20's  to late 30's .
 
was that through the UK  government hence the cypher and or was it a contract using otherwise civilian or trade guns.
 
I don't know. just sayin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2015 at 6:20pm
What I get a kick out of is all those who actually think these guns are somehow ineffective just because they are no longer used by a military. Maybe Taliban?  Canadian Rangers still use them as well.
These "Obsolete" guns are still just as effective as they were 70+ years ago and to think otherwise or to try to compare them with current armory is foolish.  They were completely capable of killing anything and everything on this planet and have done so.  To think that the targets they were used against are some how now much tougher is downright stupid.
 
I have been shooting mine at Silhouette Targets and so far this year I am leading the pack in High Power Short Range Silhouette.
 
I won Rimfire Silhouette for the last two years, and did that with a Mauser .22 made in 1929,,, and a Springfield M2 made in 1935. I shot against guys with Anschutz target rifles, and still beat them.
 
I like doing this simply because of the power of the bragging rights you win as a result of using a gun considered by most as Obsolete, is priceless.
 
You should see them gulp when I show them the date stamp on MY #4 Mk1, 1943 that I just kicked their butts with. They have yet to figure out,  "that any gun will do,,, if you will do."
 
Luckily most of the guys I shoot with have great appreciation for all weapons military and thus they appreciate what I am doing.  Sometimes they show up with their ex mil guns and we all have a good time.
 
There is great satisfaction to be had by achieving current goals with equipment from another time. It keeps the past alive, and reminds us of where we came from as well as the tools we used to make the journey. 
 
Really not that much has changed.
 
Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2015 at 6:25pm
I agree wholeheartedly, Randy! Last hunting season I showed my Longbranch PH sporter to a fellow who visited our camp and he said "how old are you"? I responded 57 and asked why...he said why are you using a rifle older than you by 12 years and I said because this rifle has dropped more animals than I can count, is reliable and will dispatch any living creature in the bush anywhere in the Americas. He asked to handle it un-loaded of course and felt the history in his hands, handed it back to me and said "now I want one too!" Such a great hobby and pastime, I just love it so much!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2015 at 6:29pm
Raising awareness is one of the best parts of shooting.  It is absolutely heart warming to see the light go on in someone's eyes when he discovers a new path to take.
 
Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2015 at 7:41am
I collect and restore original military spec Lee Metfords and Enfields. I gather and hoard Lee Metford and Enfield sporters.

More than once I have joined a deer hunting party of strangers who are friends of friends.. Some of the group come up from Toronto decked out in realtree camo everything, with fancy rifles. Some of the range finding, bullet drop compensating, low light, image intensifying, iluminated post scopes cost more than my pick up truck.

I show up in my mechanics coveralls, wellington boots, baseball cap and hit me vest.

We get ready to head out and I pull out my sportered 1899 LEC from the floor behind the seat of my pickup truck. My rifle immediately gets poo-pooed by the duck dynasty. But more than once it is me dragging the deer back to camp. I never seem to have a problem with the light being too bright, the brush too thick, the wind blowing too hard in my face or my hat too tight.

Yup, call me Bubba. I done this.

I will take on any of them at beer can dueling. Two cans set up at about 75 yards. Both standing at the 'ready' position. Somebody calls 'go'. We both shoulder and snap shoot. The only time that I loose is when I am against some youngster with open sights, often another LE sporter.

The OPs rifle is a classic. I would not hesitate to take it into the bush and rely upon it to feed me and my family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2015 at 6:59pm
I observed a conversation between a dealer and a purchaser of a savage in 270. It seems he was asking a lot of important  questions after concluding the deal. A lot of assurances that the 270 will take down any game in America.
 
I was thinking that the 303 has taken down every game animal in Africa. 0ver 100 years ago.
 
so unless  various spiecies have evolve considerably in the last 100 years I'll stick with my 303's. Even among  other hunters in a given  group they sit and stare in silence for a long time when they see me pull it out. Others fart away about their own  900 dollar rifles.
 
.30-'06, 308 and 45-70 are good too, but a bit boring after a while. If you have ever owned a british bike or sportscar you know what I mean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2015 at 4:03am
..as I've said before on this forum..its strange how folks "that know" espouse the necessity of any caliber other than .303. (30.06 seems to be ONLY caliber, these days). Funny how they look down their noses at my 1916 sport. I've taken a lot of venison with it over the years..& so did the gentleman who owned it before me(He was exec chef @ Welland Club. He's long passed on now).
..& the semi - autos..I just hafta shake my head, cuase my 1916 never "Jams", never has a feeding problem, & has an overall better reliability than all these new expensive rifles.
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