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How to distinguish a real Enfield from a copy?

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useryeah View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 22 2015 at 12:25pm
he!!o,
I came a cross a shop with old Enfields (or copies) in Kabul.
I am not a specialist in weapons, but I am quite of an admirer of the story of Afghanistan.
The shop is in a street were all foreigners go to buy souvenirs and fake antiques, and among the Enfield rifles and muskets in the shop there is one I would like to buy, but only if it's real.
I've been reading a bit about original Enfields, Afghan homemade copies and the copies made in India both for hunting and to fool collectors.
I would like someone experienced to help me.
the shop keeper said they were all old and original but sent to be fixed and cleaned.
some details:

The lock system was working,
it seemed too light weight for an old rifle
it had stamps in the barrel, stock an lock plate
it had floral decoration along the barrel
it was around 1m / 1.1m high
150 USD initial price

can you guys advise ?
thank you in advance
cheers

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SW28fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2015 at 1:27pm
Fake,  However I'd certainly givr $150 for one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2015 at 1:39pm
That picture doesn't show enough to be really helpful, but there goes anyway.

"the shop keeper said they were all old and original but sent to be fixed and cleaned."

"Buy the gun not the tale"
is good advice, particularly in an area that's notorious for forgeries.

"The shop is in a street were all foreigners go to buy souvenirs and fake antiques"
That's a warning, right there!

Look for things like off center screw slots & other signs of hand filed rather than machine made parts. Looking at the checkering on that hammer I'll bet dollars to donuts its home made, for example.

Look at any English letters, writing or numbers. A lot of the home brew smiths are illiterate & copy punches "monkey see, monkey do" & so there are frequent errors. Things like an "N" sideways for a "Z" & so on are a dead giveaway. Look for "distorted letters" some of the stamps are actually Cyrillic ones that look a bit like English, but are "wrong".

Many of the little "hieroglyphs" have specific meanings & purposes, proof marks for example. Look up a web page with "British proof marks" & see if they match, are close, or just gibberish.

Never forget "Caveat emptor" (Let the buyer beware) applies in situations like this, so if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

I might buy it at a good price for the area (which I have no way of knowing) but only as a replica wall hanger as it looks & sounds dodgy to me. If Haggling is allowed there offer $50 & see how the haggling goes.Wink
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2015 at 2:23pm
I applaud the effort to distinguish and the markings on the firearm will be the thing to note. Pay close attention to quality and correctness of any markings as well as the general fit of parts. One thing to note is that many real firearms were embellished by people to add a little flair, so just because a weapon may have some embellishment doesn't rule it out right away.
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Sarge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2015 at 12:40pm
Its fake. What shouts out at one is the uneven hatching on the lock....  and..  oh my... the fitting of that barrel!!! Dead
 
They have this sort of tourist trash in Alexandria, Istanbul, Malta, Athens......
 
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ikesdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2015 at 7:24pm
Fake.
Look at the marks all over the barrel from a file.
Better things to spend $150 on.
Pro Deo et Patria
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2015 at 4:19pm
Sarge, I noticed the ill fitting barrel but didn't notice the cross hatching on the hammer. Good eye!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2015 at 4:56am
useryeah,

Thank you for your service and come home safe.

Ed
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2015 at 8:06am
With the internet, researching Brit proof stamps is not difficult. That creats a problem in that if I can find references to the correct stamps, so can the fakers.

Many of the stamps on guns are correct in form, but just not the right stamp in the right place. The barrel here has a Lock Viewer's stamp. Stamp is v good, but should be on the lock plate.

That is a nice VR over 2p second proof mark, but it belongs on a breech loader, ie Lee Enfield. the crown over E looks official, but there is no such official mark used.

One tell tale mark is a Crown over B over 32 inspector's view mark. Not shown here, but it pops up on many different arms. Not conclusive, but every one that I seen with it has been fake.

Some arms are actually genuine Brit made units, but remarked to make them more attractive to the uninformed. Ironic really, as some of the original unmarked ones would be worth more as a collectable if they were left as is.

However, these fakes have a place in a collection as an example of Afgani workmanship. These chaps are good with hand tools and turn out some amazing stuff, albeit meant to fool souvenir hunters. Nothing more than a curiosity piece. I would pay 150 bucks no problem and hang it on my wall.
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useryeah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote useryeah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2015 at 5:38am
Hey guys,

sorry for my late reply to all of you.
I can see very good hints in your answers. thank you very much.

I haven't checked the shop again but I asked my staff and they say that in that street 90 % of the items fake ahahahaha.

to help out, most of the websites about guns ( and enfields ) are blocked by the government...so I have restricted access to websites with solid explanations and descriptions . this one, for some reason, is not blocked http://www.enfield-snider.com/Enfield.htm

I've been checking ways to get out by the civil international airport carring a "collectors" fire arm with me and it not easy...even with DHL is not easy...any ideas?

I am planing to go there again soon and take more pictures, to that one and to others..
( don't know when, as things in kabul are getting hot now and I have security rules to follow...)

cheers!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LilysDad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2015 at 1:35pm
I wonder how many folks take one of those and try to fire it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2015 at 3:53pm
useryeah, thanks for reporting back in as well as giving us an idea as to difficulty of simply looking things up on the internet over there. As for getting even a collector's weapon out, I bid you good luck as I can imagine it is going to be difficult at best. Stay safe over there!
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