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Lee Enfield MLE MK1? - Found in Dad's Attic

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Lithgow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lithgow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 8:51am

The extra actions would not have been put into stores as spares as the action was not replaced. If a rifle came in with a damaged/worn action, it was scrapped.

BSA may well have made extras and kept them for the trade.
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Fred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 11:33am
Yes, this rifle is certainly a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I* that was made after may of 1899 and probably before 1903. The butt stock is ruined and so you can get an original butt stock for it on eBay which  has one now for sale. It will be under Long Lee Enfield and they're often there for sale as well as fore stocks. Your rifle needs a sighting stud for the front Volley firing sighting arm. This was used as a front sight while viewing through the peep/eyepiece of the rear Volley Sight flip up arm when the rifle's were all fired together at massed formations of troops in the open out to 2800 yards away. The brass oiler for it was the Mk III oiler ( not the same thing as the No 1 Mk III rifle )which had the convex or rounded bottom. The Mk IV oiler of WW I and WW II had a flat botom that allowed it to stand on a table. These earlier Mk III oilers can also be located on eBay. They were issued with rifles from 1899 to 1906 and would've been the one issued with your rifle. A Brass pull through & cord was also stored in the butt under the plate. It went into the small hole next to the oiler hole. Your rifle is certainly NOT a Metford and never was. You can also obtain a Bolt Dust Guard for your rifle on eBay as well. Restore the rifle back with the replacement wood while you can still get it on eBay. You can fire it with Mk VII ammo just fine. have the head space checked since the bolt is a replacement from another rifle as the serial number shows. Not unusual.           Fred G.
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Fred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 12:03pm
The butt stock on eBay has just three hours to go before it's gone. It is item 320755591551.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Lithgow Lithgow wrote:

The extra actions would not have been put into stores as spares as the action was not replaced. If a rifle came in with a damaged/worn action, it was scrapped.

BSA may well have made extras and kept them for the trade.
 
Not according to the source I read.
If an action body cracked or warped and all other parts of the rifle were still in good shape they stripped the rifles and reassembled on a spare parts action body numbering the body to match the serial number of the barrel. That was the practice into the 1920's at least.
Until the 1920's the British held to the muzzle loader era practice of the serial number on the barrel being the definitive ID number of the rifle. So rather than renumber all parts to match a new action body the action body would be numbered to match the barrel.
The article was explaining why rifles in a certain serial number range might have an action body of a type discontinued many years earlier.
When action bodies were forged they always did this in "runs" that being the most cost efficient method. Gearing up to fill a limited order might cost more than the expected price per unit would warant. 
Also another source I found, a journal of technological advances in the 1890's told of action bodies of civilian or privately owned Lee Enfield target and sporting rifles being replaced after the British government released defective lots of .303 ammunition to the NRA at a Bisley Match. Action bodies of rifles cracked clean through due to this defective ammo.
 
I'm sure that in later years rifles with damaged action bodies would be routinely scrapped or marked as DP Drill Purpose only. After WW1 the British had millions of SMLE rifles that hadn't been issued yet.
The way they had geared up to increase mass production, performing serious repairs might take more man hours than were used in producing a new rifles, so scrapping a rifle or breaking it up for spares would be more cost effective.
 
Back in the 90's I found an add for unissued SMLE barreled action bodies intended as replacement parts. The U S Army had at one time delivered barreled receivers as replacements for rifles with damaged bores. The rifle would be stripped and all still good parts transfered, the old barreled receiver was then sent to the arsenal for rebarreling or disposal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2011 at 3:30am
Originally posted by Fred Fred wrote:

Yes, this rifle is certainly a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I* that was made after may of 1899 and probably before 1903.

Why do you say this Fred? Have you read the entire thread?
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Fred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2011 at 6:54am
I'll have to yield to your in depth knowledge, especialy of the Commercial vs Gvt. contract rifles. I didn't know that the  MLE Mk I* pattern rifles were made after the introduction of the shorter No 1 Mk I, Mk II and Mk III rifles. I figured that they might've been made in Pakistan or India for some time though.
 Thanks,  Fred
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2011 at 3:15pm
Fred, the way to tell that the original poster's rifle was made after 1903 is the commercial proof marks on its action and barrel. That set of proofs was introduced in 1904. (See "British Gunmakers" vols 1 & 2 by Nigel Brown). When you look at proofs on commercial rifles you can see that the dates of service of the government/military rifles do not exactly resemble commercial production. 

Matt, it's been fun examining and discussing your rifle on this forum. I'll send you a PM if I can locate another rifle with a nearby serial number (with a known date) that will give us a more precise date than 1904-1914.

Cheers,
JC


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2011 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Jc5 Jc5 wrote:

Matt, it's been fun examining and discussing your rifle on this forum. I'll send you a PM if I can locate another rifle with a nearby serial number (with a known date) that will give us a more precise date than 1904-1914.
 
JC that would be great.  Thank you and thank you to everyone else for contributing!  This has been very interesting to say the least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2011 at 3:21am
'Tom Gresham said once that every gun owner should take a few minutes to sit down and write the story of each gun: where you got it, what you did with it, anything you changed, fixed or replaced...and then you pass along this written paper with the gun when you sell it or give it to your kids.'
I like the idea, and the Lee Enfield has just the place to store it's own history.  I shall be writing what history I know about my rifle and placing it in the oil bottle and then into the butt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fross Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2017 at 2:00am
Hi forum, excuse me for my bad english...

I dig out this very interesting post because I recently bought the same rifle than Matt (mrdibbles)

It's a "long-Lee" commercial BSA&C°. # 17739
The main differences is the lack of the volley-sights (probably deleted on the customer order) and the charging bridge. 
The magazine is a commercial one with absolutely no marking.




Same BSA & C° marking on the right side :


Another difference on the barrel knox : instead of the "E" of Enfield, my rifle has the BSA three crossed rifles marking.


A PH5A diopter rear sight, but probably added later on the rifle.


According to JC5, it's a purely commercial Long-Lee made between 1904 and 1914. Based on the MkI* military model - no provision for a cleaning rod.

I've read somewhere (maybe on gunboards.com) that the rifles with only "BSA&C°" marking, without any private patent as i.e."Lee-Speed Patent", were made in 1914 and after.

Francois
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2017 at 2:21am
very nice (Tres bonne)
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote judee83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2017 at 3:17pm
I probably can't offer anything anyone else hasn't already said.

As far as restoration, I would take care of the metal first. That will continue to corrode if not remedied.

The wood can come later after an expert can tell you if restoration will diminish value.

Other than that, that is one beautiful and rare find. Congratulations on a great and valuable project!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2017 at 1:11am
There is an old saying.. 'You can always restore it tomorrow...BUT you will never be able to make it original again.'
Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2017 at 4:57pm
what a great thread , so much information , as ive often proclaimed im not in any way proficient in commercial rifles and only barly so in military but i love seeing these threads get wings and so much great discussion/infotrmation exchanged , its what we are here for , fanytastic response - thank you all , 

i for one would be hanging that on my wall to be sure as a long lee that we dont often see for sale on the market these days it represents an era many of us would love to add to our collection/accumulations , all too many of these have been lost through the years , congrats on your inheritance - treasure it , 
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