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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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Posted: November 11 2017 at 5:00pm |
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I have a No4 MkI bayonet. Found it at a pawn shop for ten bucks. I have been informed that this particular bayonet is as rare as Teddy Bear poo.
I have two MkII bayonets,one from Savage and three No9 Mk1 bayonets. I was under the assumption that the blade bayonets were the sought after ones. Why is this Mk1 considered rare? |
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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Very hard to make and very time consuming to make.
Let's not even talk about the cost. |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Wasn't there some deal banning cruciform bayonets?
I know they were a low volume product. |
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Bear43
Special Member Donating Member Joined: August 11 2010 Location: Doland, SD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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From what I understand the cruciform bayonets were deemed to be a violation of the Geneve Accords as the wounds produced were deemed inhumane to modern warfare. It's along those lines. I don't imagine getting stabbed with basically a giant pole barn nail is any better, but I guess there are limits to how death is dealt out.
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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They were only made by the Singer company between the late 1941 and early 1942; before the cost cutting did away with the machining for the cruciform. They made around 70,000 of them I believe; which is not that many when you consider a total of around 5,000,000 spike bayonets in total.
For ten bucks it's a steal! they sell for over 200 pounds in the UK; compared to 20 pounds for an ordinary MkII. It has all the correct markings: G "crown" R No4Mk1 SM. The No4 Mk1 is the version of the bayonet; (even though it fits the No4Mk1 rifle) G R is George Rex (king George) SM is Singer Manufacturing. It has probably got either 41 or 42 stamped on the release button. Have a look! |
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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The Geneva convention of 1864 was to do with the treatment of prisoners of war, partially because the Brits had a big habit of not taking prisoners.
Perhaps you were thinking of the Hague convention of 1907 that banned the use of certain weapons? This cruciform bayonet was introduced long after the regulation was in place. As I understand the main driving force behind moving away from a cruciform bayonet was cost and simplified manufacture as production needed to ramp up quickly for WWII. The 1931 spec for the bayonet was the ability to penetrate a German wool overcoat. For that, a plain spike works just as well as the cruciform and better than a blade. If I am not mistaken, the cruciform spike appeared with the No.1 Mk.VI, which in effect was the prototype for the No.4 rifle. The No.4 Mk.I stamping on the socket and scabbard chape refer to the Mark of the bayonet, not the rifle. Mk.I was cruciform, Mk.II was a plain spike. So although not made in the huge quantities like that of the Mk.II, cruciform spike bayonets are not that rare. They are certainly getting harder to find. Consequently the nicer ones sell at a premium. They are worth enough money that they are worth faking and fakes are out there. A fake cruciform is just a plain spike modified with four cuts on a milling machine. But the markings are wrong and the tip shape is different. Not hard to spot if you have seen an original. |
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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ZED.
It must have been repaired. The button has the Savage Square S on it. All in all,it is an original though. |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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thats a great example , its in much nicer condition than most ive seen , the one i own , and even some shown in reference books as examples ,
these went thru a number of configurations as no1 mkIIs , then Model A & B in the 20s and early 30s made at ROF Enfield trials no2 mkI in 31 , both the rifle and bayonet became no4 mkI in spring of 31 , in 33 Enfield made trials no4 mkI so there are some out there marked with the entwined ED , the war inspired added mfgrg at numerous locations and singer was already making parts was awarded the only commercial contract for mkI spikes in 41 , the one piece mkI was declared 'obsolete' the same time the contract was awarded , singer was involved in early mkII development and production as well ,
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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I'm never getting rid of this bayonet but, does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?
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Stanforth
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Are you sure it wasn't a German in a sheep's overcoat?
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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Maybe, if Hoadie was doing the testing. |
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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A square 10
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"does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?"
to a collector - yes , there is no getting around that if true and it probably would affect value in cash as well to those that need the perfect ones , in my mind not so much as its a righteous example of a singer made mkI and fine for my accumulation and a lot of others , i guess i would want to be certain before i lept to a conclusion , is the S in a square or something ?
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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Yes it is a square S inside a square.
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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It's easy enough to swap the release button; but you may have a problem finding one with the 41 or 42 stamp. Although no mark would probably be better than the Savage "S".
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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I have a blade bayonet with no markings on the button that I'd have no issues with doing a swap out on. How do you remove the button please. I've been wondering how to do this anyways.
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