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No. 4 Mk 2 7.62 mm

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britrifles View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 05 2018 at 12:36pm
Having had good success with my scoped No. 4 Mk 2 with CA 7.62 mm barrel, I decided to set it up for target shooting. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to use it in the CMP Vintage military matches since it is not “as issued”. It now wears a PH 5c apature sight with 1/4 minute elevation and windage knobs fitted. The forend has a mid-bearing for the barrel and free floating forward of the barrel bearing. I’m going to see how well it shoots out to 600 yards and perhaps shoot it in the less formal matches that are not as restrictive.

The barrel was brand new when I got the rifle from my Dad, he had the 7.62 barrel installed by the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association armorer in 1965, having paid $20 for the rifle and $30 for the 7.62 barrel. He never shot the rifle. I’ve put a few hundred rounds thru it.

Here’s how it shot at 200 yards off the bench with scope. I’m quite pleased with the accuracy, a 3.0 inch 10 shot group at 200 yards. The load is 168 gr SMK, 40.5 gr. Re 15. Oddly, the No. 4 rifles converted to 7.62 had a reputation for poor accuracy at the short ranges, which was eventually resolved with a heavy 4 lb barrel.



I ended up getting a second No. 4 Mk 2 recently, also with a CA 7.62 mm barrel, belonging to a friend of Dads. Dad has had this rifle since 1972 and we put 40 rounds thru it back in 2002. It was also set up for match shooting. This barrel has less than 200 rounds thru it.   I had another 7.62 mm magazine which I just fitted today. Fitted with a PH 5c rear sight with 1/2 minute elevation and windage knobs.

I plan to shoot both of these 7.62 conversions prone with sling with hand loads and considering selling or trading one of these rifles.   I will post pics of the groups shot prone when I get back out to the range.

Here are my three No. 4 rifles:

Top -       No. 4 Mk 2,    7.62 PF 1950
Middle -   No. 4 Mk 2,    7.62 UF 1956
Bottom - No. 4 Mk I*/3, .303 LB 1944


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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2018 at 3:18pm
Spent the day at the range, shot both No. 4 Mk 2 rifles in 7.62 NATO. Both shoot remarkably well.

First, the UF 1956 stocked up with a mid-bearing (barrel bedding at the forend middle band location and free floating forward of that. This is 10 rounds prone with sling at 300 yards, center to center spread is 5.5 inches (1.8 MOA). The 10 ring is 7 inches in diameter (2.33 MOA), X ring 3.0 inches (1 MOA).



Then moved out to 600 yards, I held shot #9 way too long and pulled it left, that was me, not the rifle. 9/10 grouped within 1.6 MOA. 10 ring is 12 inches in diameter (2 MOA).



Next, the PF 1950, this barrel has a support at the muzzle, I’ve not removed the forend yet, so I don’t know if there is another barrel bearing point.   I shot this rifle at 200 yards, also prone with sling. Extreme spread was 4.5 inches. I came up on the rear sight 1 MOA after the first shot. Excluding the first shot, the remaining 9 grouped at 3.0 inches (1.5 MOA). 10 ring is 7 inches (3.5 MOA), X ring is 3 inches (1.5 MOA). Ran out of time to shoot this rifle at 300 and 600 yards, but I expect it will be a shooter.



Overall, I’m very pleased with these rifles. The rifle and ammo is shooting approx 1 MOA for 10 rounds, I’m adding about another 1 MOA to that shooting prone.

I did no load development. The load was in the low-mid range for .308 in the Sierra 5th Edition loading manual:

Case: DI 62
Primer: WLR
Powder: 40.0 gr Varget
Bullet: 168 gr Sierra MatchKing
OAL: 2.80 in.

Velocity likely around 2470 fps based on Sierra load table corrected for barrel length.










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2018 at 9:21am
With the help of Brian at BDL, I've discovered that the PF No. 4 Mk 2 shown in the above photo at the top of the picture is in fact a legit Dominion of Canada Rifle Associate (DCRA) No. 4 7.62 mm Conversion done by Long Branch (Canadian Arsenals Limited); serial no. 590.  Before that, it was accurized by Parker Hale as a .303 target rifle.  Apparently, there were some 2000 of these rifles done by CAL, and not all were Long Branch receivers. 
With Brian's advice, I've decided not to mess with it.  It also shoots extremely well.  I took it back out to the range last weekend to shoot it at 300 yards, and easily holds the NRA SR Target 10 ring (7 inches in diameter), shooting 10 shot groups in under 2 MOA off the elbows prone with a sling, PH 5c rear sight.  Remarkable, really, considering this is still a service weight barrel.  I wish I could figure out a way to get positive ejection without modifying the rifle in any permanent way. 
 
I also shot a few rounds of Canadian DA '62 Service Ball ammo; which hits about 2 MOA below my handloads (168 gr SMK over 40.0 grains Varget).  The group of the four rounds was fairly good.  I'm assuming here that the low impact at 300 yards is related to the higher muzzle velocity leaving the barrel at a lower angle of departure.  For interest, I'm going to shoot my hand loads and 7.62 Service ammo out at 600 yards to see if this is in fact what is happening (and the positive "compensation" of the LE action will be apparent).  Articles from E.G.B Reynolds back in the 1960's indicated that the No. 4 7.62 Conversions with service weight barrels shot very well at longer ranges with service ammunition, but not as good at short range, due to the "compensating" feature of the LE action.    
 
I've relooked at my other 7.62 No. 4 Mk 2 (UF) and it has no distinguishing marks on the receiver indicating it was an "official" DCRA conversion.  The barrel has the identical markings as the PF Mk 2  DCRA conversion, so this is certainly a Long Branch 7.62 Barrel which I was the first to put any rounds thru it.   
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2018 at 6:12am
Great looking rifles, fine shooting.
Retired USAF, NRA life member
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 3:41am
Are you using Ishapore 2A type magazines?

It is possible to modify these to get good ejection of empty cases. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 5:29am
I picked up the 2 magazines from Numrich about 15 years ago, GPC Ishapore 2A Mk III reproduction mag.  I had to trim back the front edge of the rear cartridge lips for the mag to seat fully in the No. 4.  The cartridges feed fine, but won't eject the empty. 
If you know of a way to modify the mag to enable ejection, I'd appreciate the info.  I couldn't figure out a way to do it.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 6:14am
Very nice report and shooting Brit!
 
Wonderful to see these rifles shooting as well as they do, and also that they belonged to  your Dad and his mate. 
I don't think they come any better, for grouping Or looks!
 
Thanks again for taking the time to put up these reports.
 
Richard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 6:50am
Thanks Richard.  Shooting these rifles has always intrigued me.  I wished I had started it much younger.  My Dad got out of competitive shooting when I was just a boy.  His shooting mate passed away (1966/67) and I don't think Dad ever went back to Connaught in Ottawa. 
I ordered a .308 extractor from Numrich, hopefully it fits the No. 4 bolt head.  That should push the empty case a bit harder against the left side of the receiver, maybe this will help ejection. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42rocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 11:09am
Nice Shooting. Good Luck with everything. 
 
Later 42rocker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 11:44am
On the 7,62 mag in my L39; there is a small tang of metal on the  upper left side. This is to help flick out the empty case when ejecting.
Do you have the same on your magazines?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 12:55pm
Zed, no, there is no such metal tang on the two mags that I've got.  On one of the rifles, I've ground away a bit off the inside edge of the extractor to allow it to push the empty case a bit further to the left and friction will flip the case out, but just barely.   Both rifles still have the original .303 extractors.  Maybe the longer claw on the 7.62 extractor will make ejection it more positive. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

 
I ordered a .308 extractor from Numrich, hopefully it fits the No. 4 bolt head.  That should push the empty case a bit harder against the left side of the receiver, maybe this will help ejection. 
 

It should; first critical step to getting proper ejection from a 7.62 No 4 conversion is to ensure that the base of the empty case is forced hard over to the left when extracting. This is achieved by having an extractor with a longer claw than the standard .303 one (use either the special 7.62 one or a modified .303 one) and a strong extractor spring.

In Australia, the ejection issue was sometimes dealt with by drilling and tapping a hole to fit a second ejector screw forward of the standard .303 position. 

The British Enfield type 7.62 mags which Zed mentions have an ejector tab fixed on the top of the left rear feed lip; the base of the case strikes against this and is flung out decisively. Modification to the Ishapore magazine involves contriving a way to get a similar projection on the left rear feed lip. 

Be aware that there are two types of Lee Enfield 7.62 extractor; the No 4 type, and one for the No 1 based 2A 7.62 Ishapore.   Numrich does not seem to differentiate between the two.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 1:39pm
7.62 extractors. Top is for 7.62 2A Ishapore, bottom is No 4 type. Middle one is a much-modified No 4 type sold to me by Numrich as for the Ishapore, but needed much fettling to fit in my 2A1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 1:43pm
No 4 7.62 with Enfield magazine; the ejector tab protrudes into the boltway above the left rear feed lip. This Australian-converted Long Branch has the second ejector screw fitted, but I have it backed out so it is just plugging the hole and not playing any part in ejection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 2:06pm
IIRC there's a mod you can do to the rear left magazine lip. it was a "Sterling" kit part.
Basically you cut a vertical slot a little way back & bend  the resulting "finger" up enough to just flip the case base without fouling the bolt.
There's an extra bit of sheet metal too, but that's all I remember. At least you could just buy a mag & mod it to shoot leaving the original intact?

"Sterling Armaments of Dagenham, Essex produced a conversion kit comprising a new 7.62mm barrel, magazine, extractor and ejector for commercial sale. The main difference between the two conversions was in the cartridge ejection arrangement; the Enfield magazine carried a hardened steel projection that struck the rim of the extracted case to eject it, the Sterling system employed a spring-loaded plunger inserted into the receiver wall."
But it requires modding the receiver?

Maybe some variation on it with a spring loaded "pin" inside a drilled out ejector screw?
Confused
I don't have the dimensions handy, sorry but there are a couple of how to's online.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2018 at 2:18pm
MS, many thanks for this. Numrich identifies it as for the Ishapore 2A Mk III.  Hopefully, I will get it to fit the No. 4 bolt head.  This will be my first step.  If that doesn't work, then I'll see if I can figure a way to attach a similar protrusion on the mag lip.   If I can get the ejection issue fixed, then I'll be able to shoot rapid stages in matches with it. 
 
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