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Effect of Primer Selection on Muzzle Velocity |
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britrifles
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Posted: January 31 2025 at 5:40pm |
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It seems to take much more than a single fouling shot with this barrel, more like 30 to 40 rounds after being cleaned down to bare steel.
I’ve only found two products that clean to bare steel, JB bore paste and Bore Tech C4. C4 takes everything out except for the fairly thin layer of hard carbon in the throat. JB takes it all out. This barrel has pretty bad pitting in the middle 1/3 of the bore and that’s the area where I think some fouling helps, but it needs to build up and get ironed smooth by successive bullets going down the bore. At least, that’s what I think is going on based on borescope observation and grouping results. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 31 2025 at 7:35pm |
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True, but that first one is the biggest change.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 4:30am |
Oddly, I’ve never found this to be the case Shamu. And that experience is with numerous rifles and many thousands of rounds. For example, here is the plot sheet of the first ten shot group with the T last Saturday. The bore had been cleaned down to bare steel with C4. I shot this group as a “warm up” at 300 yds prior to running the bullet seating test at 600 yds. First shot was nearly dead center. The first flier did not appear until shot #6. And it was the highest velocity in the string, shot #2 was the lowest. The second ten shot string at 300 was about the same, although a higher velocity ES of 70 fps. I then shot one ten round string at 600 to confirm scope settings prior to shooting the 30 round bullet seating test. The barrel didn’t settle down until the last 10 shots of the 30 round test, a total of 50 rounds. ![]() This was the third 10 shot string shot last Saturday, at 600 yds. Note the similar shot #6 flier. This occurs about one in 10 to 20 shots with this rifle. It’s usually the highest velocity shot in the string, but this time it was the third highest. I shot this group to test the effect of pulling the rifle firmly into the shoulder vs a very light pull. I alternated shots with a firm pull and light pull. I saw no correlation of muzzle velocity or POI between a firm and light pull. No sling, shot off a front bag rest. Occasional shots in the 3 MOA diameter 9 ring at 600 are going to occur with these rifles. Very few vintage sniper rifles and shooters can hold the 600 yard target 2 MOA 10 ring for 10 shots. But it’s those 8 ring shots I’m trying to eliminate. I’m gonna get there one day… ![]() |
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Zed
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 10:17am |
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I would be well happy with a target like that Geoff!
Hopefully I will improve this year, but I think I need retirement to really find the time for practice.
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Shamu
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 12:37pm |
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I must admit I've never deep-cleaned a bore to that extent, so maybe there's a "brake point" between clean & dirty somewhere?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 2:54pm |
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Success today.
I’ll write a detailed post tomorrow. But, the conclusion is that this barrel must be well FOULED to shoot. 600 yard groups shrunk and Velocity ES and SD’s dropped as the round count went up, SD’s got down to single digits.
I’m considering not cleaning the bore at all for a while and see how long it takes for groups to open back up again. Sometimes we must persevere in our root cause investigations and tests to find out what works and what does not. Shot my best score at 600 yds today with the T. This rifle wants to group, just takes a bit of persuasion. If I had set the proper caliber on the monitor, this would have been a 99-4x. It’s set for .223 rather than .30 Cal. I know this rifle can be a winner in the Vintage Sniper Matches. ![]() |
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Strangely Brown
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 3:01pm |
I would not have believed that a fouled barrel would have made that much difference Geoff; you perseverance has certainly paid off!
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Mick
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Shamu
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 4:59pm |
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You've got it. Good work.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: February 01 2025 at 5:53pm |
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Funny how we cling to long held beliefs.
Ive always believed in keeping barrels scrupulously clean. But, that was the wrong thing to do with this barrel! |
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britrifles
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Posted: February 02 2025 at 3:14am |
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Lots to unpack from yesterday’s tests.
First, the conclusions from the “compensation” test at 200 yards.
Two different load fired to obtain different mean velocities: Load 1 - 40.0 gr Varget, MV = 2332 fps Load 2 - 41.5 gr Varget, MV = 2451 fps From Strelok, bullet drop predictions at 200 yards between these two loads is 1.3 inches, 0.65 MOA. I shot each load at 200 yards with the scope removed, sighting with the Mk I aperture sight with the following measured results at the target: Load 1 Elevation MPI = 2.0 inches below target vertical center Load 2 Elevation MPI = 2.0 inches above target vertical center Elevation rise with scope removed from 118 fps mean velocity increase = 4.0 inches (2.0 MOA) The ballistic bullet drop difference between these loads accounts for 0.65 MOA of the above 2 MOA with a net difference of 1.35 MOA. Therefore, the jump is affected and the rifle without the scope has negative compensation. I then shot each load at 200 yards with the No. 32 scope fitted with the following measured results at the target: Load 1 Elevation MPI = 0.50 inches above target vertical center Load 2 Elevation MPI = 1.75 inches above target vertical center Elevation rise with scope fitted from 113 fps mean velocity increase = 1.25 inches (0.62 MOA) The ballistic bullet drop difference between these loads accounts for the 0.62 MOA elevation rise with the scope fitted. Therefore, with the scope fitted, there is no change in angle of jump as bullet velocity increases. CONCLUSIONS: 1) This rifle does not exhibit positive “compensation”; without the scope, faster bullets leave the muzzle at a higher angle of departure, not lower. With the scope, the angle of jump is unchanged by bullet velocity changes. 2) The No. 32 Scope and mount alters action body stiffness such that it mitigates the effect of bullet velocity variations at short range. This is the reason that this rifle shoots tighter groups at 300 yds compared to 600 yds. 3) This rifle has a barrel bearing between the sling swivel band and chamber reinforce which must affect barrel vibration and is the likely reason it does not possess positive compensation that the standard stocked No. 1 and No. 4 rifles possessed. While “compensation” is highly desirable for long range, it comes at a cost of larger vertical spreads at short range. Mick may know the answer to this, but I believe competitors were permitted to use different rifles at different ranges, perhaps stocked up differently, in Bisley SR(b) matches. |
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Strangely Brown
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Posted: February 02 2025 at 3:37am |
Indeed! Reynolds mentions in his book, The Lee Enfield Story that Robin Fulton used a No.1 rifle for the final stages of the Queens Prize in 1958. Robin had used a No.4 in the early stages. (page 187) Robin Fulton was the winner that year. |
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Mick
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britrifles
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Posted: February 02 2025 at 5:10am |
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I thought that was the case Mick.
Now, for the chrono and group/score results yesterday with the T. I shot two basic loads, with two different cartridge OAL as follows: 1) 40.0 gr Varget, 3.05 inch OAL 2) 40.3 gr Varget, 3.05 inch OAL 3) 40.3 gr Varget, 3.07 inch OAL All loads used a neck sized PPU Case, WLR Primer and 174 gr Sierra MatchKing. Temp varied from 49 to 62 deg. Clear skies, winds 2-4 mph from 6 O’Clock. All groups are 10 shots, resting the fore-end on a sand bag per CMP Vintage Sniper Rules. Rifle held firmly into shoulder, no sling. Here was the 300 yard group on the US NRA Short Range Target. I’ve shot better (smaller group), but a score of 100 is as good as it gets. ![]() The column marked “C-C (MOA)” is the group extreme spread in minutes of angle measured from bullet centers of the widest two shots. Some of these groups would have been smaller because I made scope elevation and windage changes to move the group to the center of the target. In general, the rifle was grouping under 2 MOA during this test. ![]() Groups 1 & 2 with the Mk I Aperture Sight Groups 3 thru 9 with No. 32 Scope Groups 1 thru 4 - Load 1), 40.0 gr Varget Groups 5, 7 and 9 - Load 2), 40.3 gr Varget, 3.05” OAL Groups 6 & 8 - Load 3), 40.3 gr Varget, 3.07” OAL Observations/Conclusions 1) Velocity ES and SD does not settle down until about 50 rounds are fired. Even longer if it has been cleaned to bare steel. 2) No obvious difference between 3.05 and 3.07 seating depths, slightly lower mean velocity for 3.07. 3) Velocity ES begin to creep up after 60 rounds, but not significantly and had no adverse effect on score. 4) The rough grooves are likely the cause of large velocity spreads and consequently large group extreme center to center spreads. Carbon fouling mitigates this. 5) The grouping capacity of this rifle and ammunition is around 1.5 to 2 MOA if fired for smallest size group rather than for score (i.e. not making any sight adjustments). 6) This rifle shoots well enough to win CMP Vintage Sniper Matches if I do my part. I suspect Shamu is right, there may be a sweet spot with this barrel in terms of how much fouling shoots best. For the next while, I will only do a “light clean” after shooting; a few patches wet with Hoppes 9 and Kroil mix, let soak overnight and patch out dry next day. Store muzzle down with bore wet with the Hoppes 9/Kroil mix. |
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Shamu
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Posted: February 02 2025 at 12:22pm |
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That sounds like a working plan.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: February 03 2025 at 4:50am |
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I’m surprised how dramatic of an improvement this made. I had some tight clusters of 8 or 9 of the 10 shots on those 5 ten shot groups at 600 yards. Sight adjustment or one flier opened the group up to what I show in the summary table above. Had a bit of trouble with the rifle slipping on the front bag rest as the striker was released.
Several of these 600 yard groups had 8/10 shots within 1 MOA. It takes a firm hold on the rifle in this shooting position. It wants to group… ![]() |
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Mayhem
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Posted: February 03 2025 at 4:06pm |
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Excellent thread Geoff - really appreciate the time taken to document and analyse your data.
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.303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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britrifles
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Posted: February 03 2025 at 4:37pm |
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Thanks Darren. While this thread pertains to my No. 4 T, it applies to any Lee Enfield with pitted barrels. Or perhaps any military service rifle with a pitted bore.
My experience with many other rifles has shown that clean barrels shoot better than those that are let go and build up fouling. This has been the singular exception in my many years of shooting, it seems to need a fair bit of carbon in the grooves. In talking to my 94 year old father yesterday who gave me the rifle, we think perhaps he had fired some corrosively primed surplus Mk 7 service ammunition many years ago and may have not cleaned accordingly. The Snipers of WWI and II had to deal with corrosively primed ammunition by cleaning the bore very soon after being fired, otherwise corrosion would start and adversely affect accuracy (as I now well understand). I wonder if they went and took some “fouling shots” before going out on a sniping mission? Not too likely. Certainly they did not get to take a few “fouling shots” before making the one shot that counted… The accuracy standard of the T was to put 6 out of 7 shots in a 10 inch circle at 400 yards. I can better that, but it needs 50 fouling shots after a deep cleaning! |
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