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British System of Chamber Pressure Measurement

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britrifles View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 07 2020 at 1:16pm
 Ever wonder why your rifle is stamped 18.5 Tons per [] “ ?  That’s Tons per square inch of course, but do the math, that’s 41,440 psi, and falls short of the maximum pressure rating for the .303 British cartridge. The Ton is the British Long Ton 2,240 lbs.  

I’ve been puzzled about this for many years, and never found an explanation.  Surely, the action must be proofed well beyond 41,440 psi?  

I bought a copy of the April 1967 issue of “American Rifleman” off eBay as it contained an article on bedding the No. 4 rifles.  But also in this issue was an article on the British method of measuring chamber pressure.  Below are a few photos from the article.  

As most of us know, a oiled proof round was used.  The case was dipped in light oil up to the neck and this allowed the cartridge case to act like a piston pushing on a steel pad (in place of the bolt) which in turn acted on a cylindrical copper “crusher”.  The compressed copper was then measured with a micrometer and the “decrement” (amount of length reduced after firing the cartridge in the pressure test gun) used in a look up tarage table to get the chamber pressure.  These tables were made in the late 1800’s.  





The tarage tables were created to approximate an “average” pressure and the British system produced a lower average with the base crusher pressure than the US method of using a radial crusher (from a hole drilled transverse into the chamber); both methods gave measurements under the actual peak pressure, but there was no way to measure the peak pressure in those days.  The explanation given relates to the very rapid impulse of the oiled cartridge case on the steel pad which then acts on the copper crusher.  These copper crushers had their origins in measuring static, or near static, pressures in steam boilers.  But in a rifle cartridge pressure test, this occurs so quickly that dynamics of the measuring system are involved and it’s own inertia reacts some of this load, hence the copper crusher cannot measure the actual peak, but rather more aligned with the average impulse.  




So, it appears we still do not have the information to directly relate the base copper crusher method of pressure measurement to the CUP, SAAMI and CIP methods that give the maximum pressure of the .303 British cartridge (45,000, 49,000 and 52,939 psi respectively).  

It is also noteworthy that it was stated in the article that a dry cartridge produces about 3/4 of the bolt thrust that an oiled cartridge case produces.  A good reason to degrease and dry the chamber before firing the rifle.   

Also, the 1954 British Law to mark each action with the actual service pressure of the cartridge for which it is intended indicates that this marking, 18.5 tons per sq in is not the proof pressure.  This value was apparently obtained from an oiled service cartridge (does not say which mark of cartridge) using the base copper crusher method.  The article approximates this method of measuring gives about 4/5 of the peak pressure, which would then translate the 18.5 tons per sq in to 51,800 psi peak pressure, which is close to CIP max pressure of the .303 British, the CIP method directly measures the peak pressures of the propellant gases in the chamber.  

Incidentally, I came across some information stating the Mk 6 ball cartridge produced 18 tons per sq in and the Mk 7 ball cartridge (Cordite loaded) produced 19.5 tons per sq in which equates to 43,680 psi. This of course cannot be actual peak chamber pressure and likely derived from the same method of base copper crusher method.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 1:55pm
Very interesting that you found the article. Check out the photo here. It shows some very intriguing breech pressures using 174grn projectiles. In particular, I like the 51,000 CUP breech pressure produced by factory ammunition. I do not remember the original poster of this information but it is from factory sources. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 2:42pm
It used to be written as "Tons" for the short ton & "Tonnes" for the long. They were also acknowledged as being a different Ton/Tonne from the weight measure. Evey-body just "knew" & implied which after a while.
You're right though theres no direct conversion to any of the other methods.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 3:20pm
  1000 Kg ÷ 0.45359237 = 2,204.6226218488 tonnes

2204.6226218488 tonnes × 20.5 tonnes per square inch = 45,194.763747899 C.U.P.   According to the math.
To get to the published 51,000 breech pressure you would have had to proofed the rifle to 23.1 tonnes per square inch...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 5:32pm
Goosic, I suspect the values in that table used the method of directly tapping into the chamber using a piezoelectric pressure gage measuring true peak pressure.  The table just says “Breech Pressure”, doesn’t say what the units of pressure are:  CUP (American system of Radial pressure with copper crusher), the C.I.P Peak pressure (piezo transducer measuring chamber gas pressure), the SAAMI system of measurement (piezo transducer measuring case pressure on the chamber wall) or something else.  That value of 51,000 is close to the C.I.P max for the .303 which is the true max peak pressure for the .303.  The CUP max is listed as 45,000 CUP.  

I don’t think there is any way to convert the chamber pressures used in the British Cartridge base copper crusher method to any of the other common systems (CUP, SAAMI or CIP) that are given.  If someone here knows that conversion, it will shed light on this confusing subject.  

The NRA “Reloading Handbook” from the early 1960’s lists a Canadian Defense Industries (DI) 1950 Mk VII Cordite load as 43,060 psi at 2433 fps.  I suspect that must have been the British system of copper crusher measurement, the article did state they used a British Government test barrel.  It did not explain the measuring apparatus.

I believe our modern reloading manuals that give CUP units of pressure would be using the American radial pressure measurement (copper crusher) and when given in psi, are using modern piezoelectric transducer measurements tapped into the chamber of actual peak pressure, this may be the SAAMI method or CIP method (which would give slightly different results).   

It’s confusing I’m afraid.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 5:58pm
I'll just stick with what I know and will continue loading my ammunition as I always have without worries.
Did you notice in the upper right corner that it states that the 51,000 is recommended by both Hercules and Dupont?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

  1000 Kg ÷ 0.45359237 = 2,204.6226218488 tonnes

2204.6226218488 tonnes × 20.5 tonnes per square inch = 45,194.763747899 C.U.P.   According to the math.
To get to the published 51,000 breech pressure you would have had to proofed the rifle to 23.1 tonnes per square inch...

You're still thinking of a Ton as a unit of weight, which it isn't in this case.
Its the same term, but used in a totally different set of values. That's why there's a discrepancy.
Its a bit like "a Gallon"!
I grew up in the UK, a gallon is an "Imperial Gallon" , bigger than a US Gallon.
I was busy & a customer asked me how many liters were in a gallon, I automatically answered 4.25!
Then I realized he wanted a U.S. Gallon which is 3.75!Ouch
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 6:16pm
I totally understand that when applied to a value such as Per Square Inches,it becomes a measurement of pressure and not weight but can still be measured with the applied metric tonne formula.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 6:18pm
so now you've stacked 2 discrepancies together!Evil Smile
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 7:38pm
Gossic is correct in the sense that this changes nothing about how we load our cartridges, by sticking to published reloading manuals and on line data from powder companies.  And we should all be doing that.  Going outside this data can have very undesired consequences.  

The thing I discovered is that you can easily get mislead by what the actual peak pressures are in any given load, including commercial factory loads.  The method of pressure measurements matters, and the different units of pressure and are not interchangeable.  From what I can tell, we have no data to compare the pressure in “tons per sq in” stamped on our .303 rifles, pressure values quoted for the various .303 Service ammunition in contemporary literature on the .303 cartridge and the pressure values in modern reloading manuals.  I for one would not want my reloads for my No. 4 rifles to have pressure levels above that of the Mk 7 cartridge, I want it to be less.  But there is no way to know what the 18.5 tons per square inch represents in modern pressure methods to compare with published reloading data.   The closest thing I have is the early 1960’s NRA reloading manuals that gave the chamber pressure of Canadian Mk 7 ball as 43,060 psi in a table with other handload velocities and pressure data, some of that higher than Mk 7 ball.   And that data should probably not be used as powder makers have changed formulation since then.  So, I will stick with mid range .303 loads, and low end range for 7.62 (.308) current published data to minimize rifle barrel and action wear and long case life.  





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

I totally understand that when applied to a value such as Per Square Inches,it becomes a measurement of pressure and not weight but can still be measured with the applied metric tonne formula.

Don't forget that the English didn't use the metric tonne until recently.

The metric ton is 1000kg (2200 lbs), the imperial tonne is 2240lbs
Not much difference but 40lbs can be important (if you are buying something at $2000 an ounce)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2020 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:



I grew up in the UK, a gallon is an "Imperial Gallon" , bigger than a US Gallon.
I was busy & a customer asked me how many liters were in a gallon, I automatically answered 4.25!
Then I realized he wanted a U.S. Gallon which is 3.75!Ouch
[/QUOTE]

Apparently the discrepancy is due to 'shrinkage'.

When the Pilgrim Fathers set sail for the new world all the water was stored in wooden barrels, as the water was drunk the barrels were stored for use on arrival.

By the time they landed the barrels had dried out and shrunk, so the (say) a 10 gallon barrels becomes a 9 gallon barrels.
The barrels were used as a 'unit of measure' and they assumed that they were the 'same 10 gallon barrels they left with'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:14am
More specifically, the metric tonne is 1000 Kg(2,204.6226218488 tonnes)
If you just use the 2204 as a measure of inch pressure squared and multiply by 18.5 tonnes per square inch,you get 40,774 psi
Same process using 2240 imperial tonnes and you get  41,440 psi. -666psi difference .
Multiply 2240 by 20.08 tonnes per square inch and you get 

44,979.2 psi

Whatever formula used to reach this holy grail of 45,000 just does not compute using 18.5 tonnes per square inch, regardless of C.I.P., C.U.P.,or PSI figures. For the non reloaders,this will mean nothing to you buying off the shelf ammunition.  For the reloader,this just mean that,you follow the recommended safe reloading procedures in whichever manual you are using,avoiding the max charge weights...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:45am
The generalization is the same here.  My Ram pickup with a 354 C.I.D. Hemi has a peak horsepower rating of 395 hp @ 5600 rpm. These figures  are based off of the engine alone. My pickup was placed on a rolling dynamometer, ran up to 5600 rpm and the horsepower supplied to the rear wheels showed 305 hp. The rev limiter shuts the engine down at 112 mph. I'll never get the peak horsepower rating due to the engine restrictions in place. Think of the 45,000 CUP as your rev limiters. Leave it alone and keep your foot out of the go pedal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2020 at 11:31am
It would be useful to find an article on how the Brits proof tested the rifles.  This article refers to ammunition testing for measuring chamber pressures.  

I believe an oiled proof round was used and the pressure related to the values obtained with this same cartridge in their copper crusher method on the test rig.  The 18.5 tons per sq inch cannot be the proof pressure (and the article indicates it is the pressure of the service cartridge).  

Somewhere I recall reading proof tests were approx 25 tons per square inch, and this would also have used the same basis of pressure measurement to develop the proof round.  That gives a factor of 1.35 x the service cartridge.  Don’t quote me on the 25 tpsi, let me see if I can find that reference.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:35pm
There are several, shotgun, revolver & rifle.
Scroll down to P 11.
Unfortunately its very verbose so you have to wade through it.
I also remember tales of three fired rounds, 2 standard, if those passed a single "Blue Pill" load was lubricated with grease & fired. Supposedly it was built at 5/3 of the proof pressure.
I'm honestly going from memory on this so I may be a bit off.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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