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Enfield cartridge belts?

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lovethyenfield View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 19 2011 at 12:51am
Did th U.K. ever produce a cartridge belt similar to the U.S. M1/1903 belt? I have seen the pre-WW1 leather styles but I'm interested in something more like the U.S. types.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2011 at 4:49am
The standard method was : Bandoliers holding 50 rounds.
5 pockets, each containing 2 chargers with 5 rounds each.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2011 at 5:06am
I don't remember the exact details of where it came from, but I did get my grubby little mitts on a khaki web belt with loops when I was in the RAF. It fastened with the standard hook & square type fastener though, so I assume it was made by the same folks that made regular web belts. If it was "Issue" or not is another story, but I did order it from stores IIRC. That would seem to indicate some kind of belt existed in addition to the bandoliers, which we never ever saw, just wood crates with "spam cans" holding card boxes of 32(?) rounds.
Maybe there was an alternate to the ammo in chargers in bandos for some reason?

You can get great canvas belts like this here if authentic collectabiliity isn't a need. Google "Prairie belt" for a source.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2011 at 5:12am
I have a pair of belt mounted double charger pouches that hold two chargers per pouch. That makes for 40 rounds on the belt itself.
I think these are for the Pattern 37 belt with shoulder straps. The pouches have a short strap that is afixed to the should strap of the web gear and brass (or brass plated) wire slides that afix to the belt.
They also used chest mounted pouches that could be used for STEN gun magazines or extra rifles chargers, though not well suited for digging chargers out in a hurry.
 
Bandoleers made of leather were used in the 19th century and possibly into WW1, I don't know when they first started using canvas bandoleers.
 
U S Troops (New York  National Guard) assigned to British Army control, and armed with the SMLE rifle, retained their U S Army issue cartridge belt. The Enfield chargers would be a snug fit, but it seems to have worked okay.
 
I keep two bandoleers of chargers handy, should mutant, cannibalistic, post nuclear gladiators come to call.
 
Heres some info and images on the P 08 web gear and cartridge pouches used in WW1.
 
Just remembered, I once saw a photo of a British Sniper wearing a cartridge belt with loops.
Its possible that they used this sort of belt to hold specialized ammunition seperate from the standard ammo.
Snipers sometimes used incendiary bullets to set fire to enemy fuel supplies.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lovethyenfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2011 at 10:08pm
Thank you very much Gentlemen, Is there a source for these 5 pocket bandoleers with fair pricing? so far I can't find them for any less the $10 and that is a bit steep for a very thin cloth bandoleer made by the billions lol
So, you are telling me Enfields aren't the only rifle in existence? you my friend are full of it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2011 at 11:13pm
LE Owner..just a note here.I think you'll find that the chest pouches on the web gear is for BREN magazines.All infantry wore the pouches, & were required to carry BREN magazines in them.2 per pouch, 2 pouches per man.BREN gun magazines held 30 rounds per in .303.Therefore each man was carrying 120 rounds for BREN support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 6:58am
I remember asking about how a WWII British infantryman carried his personal ammo.
Grenades and extra bandoliers went into the chest pouches where there was room.
At least one bandolier was slung over the shoulders and webbing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 9:45am
You can use 7.62 NATO bandoliers for .303. They are a tad snug, but quite usable.Wink
They even have nice snaps, not twisted bits of copper wire. The Aussie ones are the best IMHO.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

LE Owner..just a note here.I think you'll find that the chest pouches on the web gear is for BREN magazines.All infantry wore the pouches, & were required to carry BREN magazines in them.2 per pouch, 2 pouches per man.BREN gun magazines held 30 rounds per in .303.Therefore each man was carrying 120 rounds for BREN support.
Hoadie
Could be that was the original intent, but they seem to have adapted these pouches to other purposes. Wide spread issue of SMGs wasn't a factor when the BREN was adopted , so an existing pouch that could hold STEN mags would make designing a dedicated pouche un necessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 12:07am
That web design was continued through the 50's, as was the BREN. The STEN (AKA: room broom) wasnt in as big of use a you may think.In fact, the tactics/ formation of a rifle company was built around the BREN.
(Damn fine weapon, that BREN.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 8:05am
There were quite a few soldiers other than riflemen, and many who would be no where near a BREN Gun in the normal course of their duties.
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The Sten Gun was the first purpose built submachine gun to be built by Canada and issued in large numbers, and was first used by Canadian units on the Dieppe Raid of 19 August 1942. It eventually came to be issued to all units going into North-west Europe from D-Day onwards.

Primarily the weapon of infantry section commanders, they were also commonly carried by other troops such as officers, vehicle crews, weapons crews, despatch riders, and anyone for whom the rifle was considered unwieldy and/or unnecessary.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 11:07am
True as that may be, the BREN was still the section's prime.The Sten became-from what I'm told-popular with the "house to house" & "mouse-hole" combat.
They were also unstable & considered dangerous to their own troops.Sudden jarring or impact could/would set them off.They were not accurate, by any means.Commonly reffered to as "the plumbers contribution to the warr effort" .
TONY! a little help here? Wasn't your dad the "Bren-man" in his unit?
My uncle was in the reserves in the 50's. The late John Arbuthnott(I used to hunt with) was the designated Bren in his unit in 59-63 reserves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

True as that may be, the BREN was still the section's prime.The Sten became-from what I'm told-popular with the "house to house" & "mouse-hole" combat.
Thats not in dispute. The use of the chest pouches for purposes other than carrying BREN gun magazines is the point.
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They were also unstable & considered dangerous to their own troops.Sudden jarring or impact could/would set them off.They were not accurate, by any means.Commonly reffered to as "the plumbers contribution to the warr effort" .
No doubt there were far better SMGs in use at the time, but the STEN was dirt cheap and readily available in large numbers, without drawing resources from production of more sophisticated weapons.
The STEN was issued on much the same manner as the U S issued the M1 carbine, a PDW that could take on CQB duties in skilled hands. Cheaper and more effective than a quality handgun in the hands of troops not skilled with a handgun and easier to carry than a rifle.
 
From Dunkirk until well into the war there were not enough BREN guns to go around. Much of the early production ended up in German hands.
The BAR was the base of fire weapon for U S squads, at least till the 1919A6 came along, but the individual riflemen still had to carry their own ammo load besides any magazines they might carry for the BAR man, no Thompson gunner or M3 gunner would be expected to shuck the majority of his own ammo in favor of carrying BAR ammo. Same with the Germans, each man in the squad carried LMG belts or a can of ammo for the LMG, but they also carried their own ammo loads as well.
The rifles used the same ammo as the Automatic rifle or LMG, but no soldier was expected to delink or strip rounds from a magazine to load his rifle one shot at a time.
 
IIRC the Chest pouches were even altered in production to make it easier to close the lid on a full load of STEN magazines.
 
Also since Mortar crews and other gun crews would be covered by belt fed guns when possible rather than the BREN they would not be expected to carry ammo for a gun not present, and in serving their weapons they would not be in a position to break off what they were doing to resupply another gun crew anyway.
 
Use of the chest pouche for carrying other types of ammo and supplies was a matter of convenience. The pouches were simple to make and widely available, no need to design and manufacture dedicated pouches other than those already in circulation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 6:32pm
No hoadie my old man wasn't a bren gunner but I can catagorically say ( information from my old man who served in WW2) that all the troops were issued with bren mags because the bren was the light support weapon for each section. Yes we did lose a lot of weapons at Dunkirk but production was stepped up to cover the losses.  The Sten was designed during the Battle of Britain as  a cheap weapon for supply to both troops and latterly resistance workers. The 9mm ball was standard and should ammo become scarce German ammo for the MP40 could be used.  The sten fires pistol ammo with a limited range and accuracy (ideal for house clearances etc but sod all good as a section support weapon in the field) was cheap to produce but could be just as dangerous to the users due to the number of accidental discharges because the bolt lock wasn't as good as it should have been.  Enfield went over to mass production of Brens whilst other factories like Fazakerly produced the rifles. Belt fed machine guns were Vickers ( you should try carrying 1 then you'll see why the Bren was adopted) heavy cumbersome brutes ideal for static warfare but a liability for fast moving troops.  I can vouch for that having carried both the Bren and the GPMG had a hand in moving and setting up an old vickers and had a near miss with an old sten when the halfwit carrying it caught the but on the tailgate and shoved half a magazine through the canvas roof of the lorry just missing my head. The chest pouches also carried grenades, modifications were made for drivers who were hampered by the hight of the chest pouches. Consequently they were issued with a single pouch with a loop at the back for attaching to their web belt for carrying Bren magazines.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 9:16pm
...and there we have it..the definitive word
I have fired the BREN, & I'm still in awe as to how unbelievably accurate they are/were.
During our second whirl at war, anyone-& I DO MEAN ANYONE- that had any machining skills..or even had some machines in their house / garage were given contracts to produce BREN parts. English Electric Co here in St.Catharines were a big producer of parts.Turned all their facility over to machining, till the war ended.
In the Australian made movie KOKODA, the BREN support is shown quite well, as the lads were pulling magazines from their pouches for the BREN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beerhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 1:23am
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

LE Owner..just a note here.I think you'll find that the chest pouches on the web gear is for BREN magazines.All infantry wore the pouches, & were required to carry BREN magazines in them.2 per pouch, 2 pouches per man.BREN gun magazines held 30 rounds per in .303.Therefore each man was carrying 120 rounds for BREN support.
Hoadie

Nearly right.  Only the Bren No.1 and No.2 carried four magazines in their pouches.  In the case of No.1, a fifth magazine was carried on the gun.  No2 also carried 50 rounds in a bandolier for his rifle.  Each man in the Infantry section carried two full magazines in their pouches plus 100 rounds in chargers, in bandoliers.

Next, Bren magazines were only loaded with 28 rounds each and so each man other than No.1 and No.2 carrried 56 rounds in magazines.  As the Bren used up magazines the empties were distributed to the members of the Section for refilling from their bandoliers.
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