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My new NO4, opinions solicited

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Whitjr View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 18 2020 at 5:37pm
Hey guys-

I have finally gotten around to getting the photos of the new member of my gun safe. Been really busy with raking care of my wire's condition, that's the delay.

Overall, the rifle is a nice looker. The stock refinish seems to have been done pretty well...  using what looks like [to me] a Peramalyn GunStock Finish.  Certainly high gloss, however satiny to the touch, not stiff like a polyeutherane feels like.

The bore I didn't photograph, however it looks like a new one.  Lands are bright, rifling crisp and full. The bore on the No.4 looks like my Remington 700 did, when I bought it new, and unfired.

   
When I posted that I had won an auction a few weeks ago. and put up a photo from the auction, someone posted that they thought the black was a rattle can paint job.  I'm inclined now to agree. It is a good job, for what it is.  the folks that did it obviously spent some time on getting it to look nice.  



I think the rear sight is supposed to have the windage and elevation adjustments in the white, yes?



The original serial number seems to be stamped out, and replace with some stamps that I really do not know what these mean.  However, the original serial number still exists on the bolt handle, as well on the magazine, that also carries the new serial number "C-13"





On the receiver, where I would expect to see a more lengthy serial number, it appears to have been ground down enough to make that disappear.



There are some stamps on the muzzle, which I believe are some sort of import marks.  However I do not see a importer ID there, just the enfield type and caliber.





Last, there is a pic of the bolt head. Any ideas about what the stampings mean?



The action is smooth, both back and forward.  there are no markings on the stock that I can see.  

I am looking forward to getting out to the range sometime.  I am going to visualize the receiver/breech with the bore scope I bought to look for any problems.  I'll be surprised if I find any, tho.  The gun is in a finish that I appreciate.  However not too sure what the refinish of it has done to the value of the weapon.

Do you think this weapon is a No 4 Mark 1, or Mark 2?  No notations on the gun to indicate what.

I would appreciate hearing opinions from all you knowledgable types...  thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2020 at 6:25pm
I believe it's a Mk2 due to the cross bolt near the wrist band. I've never seen "Great Britian" on the muzzle, but then again, I'm fairly new to the game. As far as the finish... if you like it, keep it! You can always strip it and put on a more traditional linseed oil treatment down the road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2020 at 7:51pm
Thank you, Honkytonk.

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the origin is, and what the numbering markings mean?  I've never seen such a short serial number.  Wonder how to date this nice Enfield?

in re=reading my 12/29/19 post, there were many informative comments there. 

I'm still wondering how to date this old rifle.  Giving the new info on the old "scrubbed" serial number,  and what is found on the bolt handle and magazine... I guess those numbers in conjunction with the C-13 on the receiver would make this a matching numbers gun.  hmmm...

What makes me think that the paint is recent, is that the No 4 spike bayonet I have doesn't fit smoothly, seems to have a bit too much paint on the muzzle. 

I can't scratch off the paint anywhere on the rifle, I've tried in a few inconspicious places after receiving the rifle.

What are those markings on the bolt head all about?
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Zed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 4:28am
The rifle is either a no4Mk2 or more probably a No4Mk1/2. The latter are FTR (Factory Through Repair) upgrades to the Mk1's; which had the modification to the trigger of the Mk2 fitted and the replacement wood to suit with the cross screw at the rear.
Normally the No4Mk1/2 would be electro pencililed on the LHside of the receiver. it could be hidden under the new paint.
I have no clue about the C13; unless it's a rack number from some cadet unit or other countries re-numbering. Maybe someone can enlighten us all on that one.
The original serial beginning with a number 3 would suggest BSA manufacture. So checking there serial number records could date the rifle approximately.

What number is stamped on the top of the bolt head (0-1-2-3)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 4:41am
Thank you, Zed.

Have you any advice on how to check the BSA serial numbers?  Perhaps a website or obtainable brochure?

The bolt head is stamped "1"

I looked at the LH receiver.  I do not believe there is anything covered by paint there.  "C-13" remains a mystery....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 6:48am
The elevation marks on the rear face of the ladder should be white, but there shouldn't be any windage ones?
Ground (called "scrubbing"), repainted & renumbered is a common indication of some time in India.
Bolt head number "1" refers to its length, they came in 4 lengths, 0, 1, 2, &3.
"Great Britain" is just a variation on "England", a pre 1968 U.S. Import Requirement for the "country of origin" (NOT manufacture necessarily) to be marked on it.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 9:52am
Thanks, Shamu.

There are additional markings on the bolt head that I do not understand.  photo above.

i have spent the last hour online searching serial number identification.  Can't seem to find a BSA serial number lookup site, that is strickly BSA.  I found that is it is a Mk2, then mine could have been FTR after 1949, otherwise it seems that it is a pre 1949.  Confusing, however am wanting to learn about my new rifle...

perhaps the small numbers on the wrist band mean something...   will look at those now.

I am grateful for anyone's insights...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 10:20am
After looking at the small numbers on the LH wrist band, some things are unusual. 
-these are very small numbers, 'way smaller than the usual size of a serial number
-some are sideways to each other
-no straight line of stampings
-here are the stamped characters:
        -H [sideways to next stamp] then IC
        -H again [above next set of characters] which appear to be 60 or could be G and a Oh, not a six and a zero
        -below all of the above are Larger stampings: IC

Any ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 11:01am
I just did a throuogh inspection of the markings on the rear sight.  As in Shamu's photos above, the sight on my rifle appears to look like the one on the left of the picture, has the same xx403 mark, and above that is a stamp I can't make out.

Been reading the articles on https://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/no4s/no4-mk12-mk13-mk2-and-ftr/ in a further attempt to understand the apparently rich history behind my gun.  I must admit that this still leaves me in the dark about the "C-13" stamp, and the small stampings mentioned above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 3:16am
I don’t pretend to be an expert on the No 4 rifles, and still have a couple of questions...

In my readings, I saw where The original manufacturing equipment from the English factories appears to have been sold to both India and Pakistan.  Arming both sides of a conflict... hmmm...  anyway, that reminds me of the German Armourer: Krupp; as well as Mauser.  

I raise this as a question about markings on the rifles, that may have placed by Ishapore or Pakistan.

Still searching for where the the “C 13” stamp came from...  as well the stamps on the bolt that I do not recognize. 

Thanks to all that may reply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 4:12am
The Y prefix suggests BSA
The C is probably a Canadian mark, the 13 who knows, could be an inspectors assigned number, or some cadet unit???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 8:34am
A lot of the small number stamps are factory inspectors ones signifying that "Inspector #36" had viewed his part to inspect & it met specifications.
Most are completely anonymous.
The "crossed flags" stamp indicates it passed proof firing pressures.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 9:11am
C13 is marked on both receiver and magazine, which to me suggests a rack number or some sort of assembly number to keep the two together. Not a conventional marking. 

Many stamped markings on a rifle are process markings as it went through the factory, they only had meaning to a few people during manufacture, but now the meaning is lost in time. 

So sometimes a rifle has lots of markings which really don't mean anything. Other times they can read like a book telling the rifle's story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 4:03pm
I had read that later on that Canada started using C in place of L to mark rifles, its probably not unless your rifle is C13 fragmentation granade... lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2020 at 4:58am
when I take it down, we’ll just have to see what marking are under the handguards.
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