Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Bayonets
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Just picked up No7 bayonet
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Just picked up No7 bayonet

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Enfield trader View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: May 11 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 734
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enfield trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Just picked up No7 bayonet
    Posted: November 17 2023 at 9:42am
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 16796
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2023 at 11:25am
Nice find.
Probably the best L-E "knife" even if not the best "Bayonet"!
I wonder how much of the legend of shooting itself is real? I tried a 1/4" dowel in my bore with one fitted & it seems to have enough (even if not "centered") clearance.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 8316
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2023 at 6:26pm
It looks very, "Cool" fixed but, I do not believe I would attempt firing a round through it...

Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 13882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2023 at 9:02pm
im in agreement with goosic on this one , i had two - the black and the red scaled versions at one point but never reattk liked them as a bayonet , seems a better knife to me , but they do have an appeal for the collector in me , 

congrats on a great find , yours looks to be a fine example 
Back to Top
Strangely Brown View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2022
Location: Wiltshire
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2023 at 3:09am
Nerd comment...
  
The grips on the on No.7 are made from Tufnol®, essentially a cotton cloth impregnated with resin.

In the 1950's my older brothers were regularly coming home with radio items acquired from the many surplus shops in the Brighton area and I recall a morse key amongst them in the same dark brown material.
Mick
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 13882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2023 at 6:20pm
back in the days i did learn that about the grip scales , were any others made that way ? and why was that material selected ? 
Back to Top
Strangely Brown View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2022
Location: Wiltshire
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2023 at 3:37am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

back in the days i did learn that about the grip scales , were any others made that way ? and why was that material selected ? 

My assumption for the change of colour to black grips was because the trials bayonets for the .280 British EM2 were all black; never seen an EM2 bayonet with red/brown grips, but I dare say there's one out there somewhere!

Tufnol® I suspect was selected because it was less brittle than similar materials of the period, Bakelite for example. 
This was only a couple of years after hostilities had ended and British industry was very much in a "make do and mend" frame of mind. 
It's interesting that modern day historians refer to those years in the UK as, the years of austerity! 

Mick
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 13882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2023 at 5:07pm
as mentioned i had both the black and the red/brown , the black was far harder to find for me but that ,may be as you mention that they were the selected for the trials and possibly stayed in service longer ?? just speculation on my part , 

i know these were used in parade/ceremony events , was the black the ones used for that ? 
we here chrome plated various models for that purpose , was that common ? over the years back i avoided buying those versions as i wanted "as issued" examples in my collection but i did have one or two by various trade defaults , my FIL suposedly had one that was given as an award of some sort but it was not seen in the estate cleanout , we did find his dress swoed and thankfully one of his sones cared enought to take it , i have a vast amount of his things im hoping to case up as display and compile as records of his 20+ year career as i did my fathers , hopefully someone after me will care , 
Back to Top
Strangely Brown View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2022
Location: Wiltshire
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 2:31am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

I know these were used in parade/ceremony events , was the black the ones used for that ? 
we here chrome plated various models for that purpose , was that common ? over the years back i avoided buying those versions as i wanted "as issued" examples in my collection but i did have one or two by various trade defaults , 

You raise some interesting points; the No.7 bayonet is still in use by the Brigade of Guards band before which I believe they used the 1907 Patt bayonet for the SMLE.
Next time I'm in London and watch the band I'll have to look for black hand grips but to date have only seen red/brown grips. 
One other point of interest is that the Rifles regiment band, formally the Royal Green Jackets, Light Infantry and other now disbanded units still carry the 1907 pattern bayonet on ceremony duties. 
The similarity in length to the Victorian drummers short sword made the 1907 Patt a replacement too good to miss for the penny pinching war office at the time.

When it comes to chrome plated bayonets, i.e. escort to the colours etc. then the majority of these (if not all) were chrome plated at unit level to suit whatever the regiment required. 
I have even known cadet units have very large ball bearings welded onto No.4 spike bayonets and then have them chrome plated, no idea why as cadet units do not as a rule carry colours! 
Mick
Back to Top
Zed View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: May 01 2012
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 5346
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 3:59am
All this talk of chrome plated bayonets has reminded me, that I sent  chrome spike bayonet and scabbard to Hoadie. It was a while ago; and we are still waiting for the photos of Hoadie in ceremonial dress with No 4 rifle and bayonet! 
So Hoadie, over to you!
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 8316
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 6:00am
Taken from "The World of Bayonets."   ...
The No. 7 Mk. I/L was used with the 9 mm. STEN Mk. V submachine gun.

Part knife bayonet and part socket bayonet, The No. 7 was a very innovative and complex design, with a unique swiveling pommel. The No. 7 Mk. I/L (spoken: number seven, mark one, land service) was intended to address a number of desires:

1) Replace the No. 4 spike bayonet (that nobody liked);
2) Utilize the clip-point blade of the No. 5 Mk. I bayonet (that everybody liked); and,
3) Serve a dual role as a fighting knife.

Despite all of it's ingenuity, the No. 7 Mk. I/L came to prove the old adage that a camel is a horse, as designed by committee. It was also capable of mounting to the Lee-Enfield No. 4 rifle, these bayonets were not issued as such, only being used with the No. 4 rifle for ceremonial purposes.

The grip scales are made of a resin impregnated cloth composite, Paxolin, and have deep finger grooves to allow use as a fighting knife. Examples are also found with black grips.

176,000 No. 7 Mk. I/L bayonets were produced. The design was perfected by the Wilkinson Sword Co., who produced 1,000 bayonets in 1944. Mass production was carried out by four manufacturers from 1945–1948:

Birmingham Small Arms, Ltd. Small Heath M47A—25,000, with 5000 of those made with the Black Grips.

Elkington & Co. Ltd., Birmingham —20,000;

Royal Ordnance Factory, Poole —30,000; and,

Royal Ordnance Factory, Newport —100,000.

Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 4791
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 6:18am
Good to know, Thanks!
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 16796
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 12:43pm
Watching QE2's funeral procession I noticed the RAF contingent had one (or what seemed to be one) in a parade-white scabbard in the center rear of the parade white webbing belt.
Not the best image I'm afraid, but all I could find.
https://c.ndtvimg.com/2022-09/q096stno_queen-elizabeth_625x300_13_September_22.jpg
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Strangely Brown View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2022
Location: Wiltshire
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2023 at 12:53pm
Shamu, there're SA80 bayonets; I've found a rear view clearer image but it's not a jpeg and I can't upload it.

Mick
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 16796
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2023 at 8:01am
Ah! thanks. that makes perfect sense.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.