Lithgow WWI Enfield |
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Posted: September 01 2019 at 12:22pm |
I am unsure if there are any restrictions on references to other broker sites and will be happy to modify my post if there are, However, I am an Aussie living in Chicago and learned to shoot the 303 in army cadets and want to add an aussie enfield to my collection. On gunbroker.com there is a 1917 Lithgow Mk3* that appears to be largely unrestored, largely #s matching but not quite all original. As a fan, but not an experienced collector, I would welcome any feedback, and happy to forward web links to anyone interested in providing their opinion. I have been researching for about six months and happy to remain patient if this is not a good one. Quality over quantity! Hopefully one day I can return the favour. Thanks Geoff |
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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Be careful when buying a Lithgow rifle in the USA.
When the Lithgow company sold off it's stock of Lee Enfield rifles and part's; they were bought by J Jorinco Company in the USA. They received a mixture of complete rifles; as well as a lot of parts. They are known to have put together many rifles from the part's. They were sold as complete rifles; but are not necessarily finished to proper specification. Example: some did not have the brass reinforcements fitted to the coachwood fore end. Maybe also non matching bolt's etc. A JJCo stamp on the receiver does not necessarily mean it's a "bitza"; but it certainly requires proper inspection before considering purchase. However I would expect that this would be more relevant WWII production. I have a J Jorinco stamped Lithgow No2MkIV*. It has matching numbers and is a very good shooting rifle. But the Butt stock is obviously a replacement; being incorrectly marked with a six pointed star instead of a seven pointed star! |
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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The Armourer
Senior Member Joined: June 23 2019 Location: Y Felinhelli Status: Offline Points: 1246 |
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As far as I am aware- The original Lithgow assembled rifles had a prefix letter to the serial number.
The ones assembled from 'random parts' by J Jovino had a suffix letter (normally an A) to the serial number and the various numbered parts are unlikely to match. The ones without the reinforcing recoil plates have been shown to split within about 20-30 rounds. Inspect carefully !!!!! |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Here's the whole "JJ&Co" saga, compiled from several sources. You can check for the presence (or absence) of the recoil plates by removing the bolt & magazine & looking back & up shallowly into the rear of the receiver through the magazine well. if they're there you'll see them, but be aware they are frequently dirty or greasy so look carefully.
No. 1 Mk III* (Lithgow - "New") Where JJ Co used unissued receivers,
they did not have serial numbers on them from Lithgow. For knowledgeable collectors of Lithgow Enfields, these assembled new rifles are pretty easy to spot by their light colored stocks and parkerized finish. Another dead give away for the assembled rifles is that they are not in the normal Lithgow serial number ranges. Most of the assembled rifles have serial numbers that either start with a "G" prefix or have a "A" suffix. import marks on your Lithgow on the right hand side of receiver just above the woodline in front of the bolt handle? If so, I think it you look hard at your import marks, you will see that they are actually IA CO SAC CA but the first "I" looks like a "T" due to the mark being stamped at an angle. I have had a couple of the IA imported Lithgow rifles with the IA CO SAC CA import marks on the location I mentioned and others with the import marks on the bottom of the charger bridge on the right side. IA was the "Inter American" company and they imported a lot if military surplus arms as well as new AKs and Sks. If I remember right, they went out of business around 2005 or so. Anyhow, they had some pretty nice Lithgows as well as some not so nice like any importer. They did not assemble rifles from NOS parts either like Jovino did. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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The Lithgow I'm having built is being fabricated from parts. Bolt will be fitted to action, furniture will be picked to match. This I'm fully aware of... and can't wait to heft that ole war horse! While I totally can appreciate the collector and the purists, I've never been one. Sounds way, way out of my price range!
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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HT, your rifle is, I believe, being built for you by a qualified gunsmith; that know's his way around an Enfield? At least I hope it is!
There is quite a big difference when parts are just put together with no proper fitting or checks.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Homer
Senior Member Joined: January 01 2013 Location: Brisbane Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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aussieshooter, PM me a link to the auction, I’ll have a look at it for you.
Just to clarify a few points made earlier, for the record. Lithgow only started installing recoil plates from about 1939 or at least the late 30’s. Plus, there was a lengthy period of about one year from 1943, in order to speed up production, recoil plates were not installed. This period alone equates to roughly a little over 100000 rifles with D and E prefixed serial numbers. These rifles were shot plenty in service. My main shooting rifle, an original from new 1942 Lithgow does not have recoil plates. Also, there seem to be equally as many 1942/43/44 dated Lithgow rifles that appear to have missed the battle, as there are 1945. No doubt we’ve all made varying observations, but I wouldn’t be at all suspicious of an unissued looking Lithgow with a 1942 or 1943 action date. They used to appear regularly, I’ve owned plenty including 1941. Makes sense a healthy volume of new rifles were kept in reserve and I’d suggest the minty looking 1942 dated rifles surplused off in the 80’s, possibly outnumber the numbers of 1945 action dates on the market. Talking about as new here. Probably all useless information gents but I felt some earlier points needed further discussion.
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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Zed. Yes, he is very experienced and highly regarded in the world of Enfields.. He's currently in the process of fitting hardware to furniture...
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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homer can help you far better than most i know , im still seeking out an aussie rifle - one day perhaps , you will get good info here tho ,
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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Zed. He also said with No1's, you just don't plop the hardware in. After steam pressing the wood true, he said there's quite a bit of fiddling to set them up proper. Again, not knowing No1's, I guess I thought they were pretty much like No4's... like I said before. I only know enuff to make me dangerous!
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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No1's are actually spring-loaded internally in addition to all the other fitting for draws Etc! It was done originally to help stabilize the thin, light whippy barrel. Parts 2,3,4, & 5! |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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Actually, in the true British way, that's why he said the No1's are very special... he told me he appreciates the No4's, but luvs the No1's.
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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It was supposed to (& may actually have) compensate for variable ammo velocities!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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Shamu... once tuned, do No1's require periodic "retuning"? Or if not mishandled, do they stay correct?
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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No additional work is needed, just periodically check that the screw, visible between the bayonet lug & piling swivel mount is tight. Some think they can "adjust" the spring with this but it needs to be tight to work properly.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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Good info. Thanks Shamu.
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