Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Off Topic > OT Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - M1 Woes
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

M1 Woes

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: M1 Woes
    Posted: May 15 2022 at 5:43am
I confess, I do like the M1 rifle.  It is probably the most comfortable rifle to shoot, especially in the standing position.  

 I have nicknamed my regular shooter “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde”, because you never know when shots will suddenly go high or low.  I’ve shot some great scores with this rifle in CMP John C Garand Matches, won last years CMP D-Day Match with it and got my first 6 EIC points towards Distinguished Marksman with it last year shooting it across the course (200, 300 and 600 yards). 

D-Day matches coming up in June and haven’t shot my M1 since last year.  Was out to the range yesterday and Mr. Hyde is back.  It was pretty good at 200 yds, shot decent standing and sitting rapid fire  scores.  At 300, groups opened up a bit, but not bad.  But 600 was a train wreck.  Strings shots vertical something terrible!  Two shots even went under the target!  Then a high shot in the 7 ring at 12:00.  I know it’s not me or the ammo.  And I can’t detect any movement of the action in the stock.  So frustrating…

Sorry, just had to vent. 



Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 9:00am
Think I found the problem.  Trigger guard lock up is way too weak.  I can latch the guard just with thumb pressure.  Needs a new stock…and only 3 weeks to the D-Day Matches!
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 6694
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 9:39am
Something to think about here britrifles. 
Many many years ago, I was qualifying on the 300m and 600m range with a M40A1 that had just been upgraded to the A3 platform with the ratcheting Harris bipod. Nothing fancy as far as optics.  A Unertl 10x fixed dayscope. At 300m, I was grouping sub-moa. At 600m we thought the rifle had broken some how. The groups were stringing from the bottom left to the upper right of the target in a diagonal pattern as much as 108".
Wind velocities from muzzle to target were checked and rechecked along with barometric pressures between those marks as well. Nothing out of the ordinary.  The rifle went back to the Base Armory and completely stripped and checked and then rechecked before reassembly. The following day I was back in position with all new ammunition.  Wind speed at the target was NSW at 1mph. Temp at target was 72°. The rifle barrel was left fouled from the day prior. The cold bore shot should have impacted the X ring. It did not. I was almost disqualified for knicking the bottom left of the target frame. 
It needs to be mentioned now that, I was not wearing the complete top section of my BDU's that I normally would have had on. I was trying to get myself as close to the rifle as possible and low as possible to the ground so I was wearing my PT shirt.
It was suggested that I get dressed as I would be in the field and try again. By the time I was in postion again, the winds had increased to 12 - 17 mph and had changed direction.  The temperature had increased to 96°. Every shot placed hit no further out than an inch past the breaking line between the X and the Ten ring. If you have not figured it out yet. It was not the rifle or the ammunition.  It was my heartbeat. 
Before you condemn the weapon, make certain that everything is failsafe with you. Remember that, the rifle is only as good as the operating system will allow...
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 10:45am
Interesting story.

  I’ve seen the effects of heartbeat at 600 thru the 4x scope on my AR-15 Service Rifle. And it does cause the rifle to move about the height of the X ring on the MR target (1 MOA) in the prone position, sometimes worse. Shooting coat helps with this. 

I was getting such poor results that I’m pretty sure it is something with the action moving in the stock.   I shot 5 ten round groups, and all were over 5 MOA, not at all acceptable.  And one group had two consecutive shots that were low misses!  

My 600 yard load is a fair bit stiffer than my 200/300 yard load, which I believe was causing more vertical movement of the action in the stock at 600 yds.   I’m using 168’s at 600 and 125’s at 200/300, both with the same powder charge, 44.5 gr H4895.  

I’m bringing the rifle over to our local M1 smith so he can work his magic on it, he is very knowledgeable on the M1.  He agreed that the light lockup is a prime suspect for the vertical stringing. 


Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 14803
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 12:39pm
I don't know if this works with the M-1 Garand, but it does with the M 14/M1a & the lockup is virtually identical.
Take something that will fit in the slot for the safety in the trigger guard. (Suitable flat bladed screwdriver) clamp the trigger guard (opened) firmly in a suitable heavy duty vice. slip the blade of the screwdriver through the hole & use as a cheater bar to close the bow slightly. Repeat as needed for a firm clasp when closed.
Thumbs Up

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 1:41pm
I think what’s happening on my M1 is that the trigger guard cam pins are worn and the stock has compressed between the top and bottom horizontal bearing surfaces such that there is not sufficient clamping of the stock to the action.  I’m familiar with the trick you described to keep the trigger guard latched, but that’s not really addressing the issue causing vertical stringing.  If I had some time to test this, I would add wood shims to the stock surfaces that bear on the trigger housing floor plate.   It I’m not sure if that is match legal….I’ll see what Steve Edwards does with it.  
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 9:40am
I dropped off my M1 to the local M1 smith on Tuesday.  He did see two things right away that needed addressing: 1) Insufficient clamp up of the action in the stock and 2) the stock sling swivel ferrule is sitting too high and not applying any down pressure to the barrel (via middle barrel band) and also causing the operating rod to rub on the ferrule.  Neither of these are conducive to accuracy and tend to cause vertical stringing. 

D-Day match is fast approaching, so crossing fingers that he gets this done in the next two weeks so I get a chance to test fire and re-zero the sights for the 200, 300 and 600 yard ranges.  He his a great guy and I’m very thankful he is dropping other work to do this for me.  



 
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 14803
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 10:37am
Good luck!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
hoadie View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2006
Location: Niagara/Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8518
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Good luck!


yeah!...& keep yer thumb out of it!!
Loose wimmen tightened here
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 1:38pm
Oh, it hurts if you don’t!  Embarrassed


Back to Top
hoadie View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2006
Location: Niagara/Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8518
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 3:11pm
I got "M-1 thumb" twice...after that I sold it
Loose wimmen tightened here
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 14803
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 4:03pm
I got it from a friends who told me "they don't bite"
He lied!
lil' bastage drew blood.Censored

If you've never had an 9 (& change) pound M-1 hang of your right arm by digging the (appropriately named) "extractor claw" into your right thumb, right behind the nail! While trying to grasp it, wearing one of those big "Oven Mitt" shooting gloves, You haven't lived (or heard my individually private really good curses!).
It was an instant conversion to the (free) Foster Farms "Chicken Mitt"!


Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 5:45pm
The thing about the M1 Thumb is that you only make that mistake ONCE.  If you repeat it, then that is on you, not the rifle.  

As much as I love the No. 4, I must confess, JCG got it right with the M1.  He was a Canadian, so what else can I say?

Indeed, they are capable of very good accuracy, for a battle rifle.  But they are also capable of horrible accuracy when something is off.  That’s about where mine is right now.  I’m sure Steve will sort that out for me, and I’ll be punching the X ring again here soon….

Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 4178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2022 at 1:34pm
Got my M1 back yesterday and went to the range today.  All I can say is WOW!  I’m very pleased.  This rifle now SHOOTS!  Steve really worked his magic, he did a complete check over and tune.  

The main problem was the stock not fitting correctly.  There was no down pressure on the barrel at the Handguard Ferrule from the Stock Ferrule (where the sling swivel attaches).  This is critical for the M1 to dampen barrel vibration, but I had no idea it would make so much difference.  The vertical stringing is gone.

Here is my first five shot group after initial sighters, 200 yards prone in sling.  The five shot group is just at 1.5 MOA.  This is exceptional for a M1 in the “as issued” configuration. 



Took it out to 600 yards on the MR Target.  Four shots to find the 10 ring, but once there, it hammered.  Again, prone in sling.  I’ve zoomed the monitor all the way in to just show the 10 and X rings, which are 12 and 6 inches respectively (2 and 1 MOA).  The five shots are under 1/2 MOA extreme spread.



Believe me, I’ve got no delusions that this rifle is now a sub-MOA rifle.  That is really not possible with a M1.  And, I’ve got no delusions I’m a 1/2 MOA hard holder, it was just one of those days that the sum of various errors pretty much cancelled out for those five shots. You will see on the column of individual shots on the right side of the monitor that I threw shot #9 high in the 8 ring, that was me not being very careful with a consistent sight picture, I called that shot high.  I then refocused and put the last shot back into that 5 shot group. 

I’m now ready for the Talladega D-Day Matches next week.  Looking forward to it. 
Back to Top
Honkytonk View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 30 2017
Location: Brandon Mb
Status: Offline
Points: 4009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2022 at 2:21pm
Mighty fine shooting!
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 14803
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2022 at 4:25pm
Glad to hear it! He obviously knows his stuff.
Way back I had an Springfield Armory M1a, Accuracy from the factory was ok to iffy.
Then I found a copy of the USMC accurizing manual for it.
Its not possible to put "up" pressure with that design, but some clever USMC armorer figured out you could apply "Down" pressure, which achieved the same result.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.