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Missing battle sight?

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Fairbanks007 View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 13 2020 at 7:04am
he!!o.

I just acquired my first Lee Enfield rifle, a No4 Mk 1. Overall it appears to be in reasonably good condition but seems to be missing the rear battle sight. It does not have the horizontal piece just above the bolt release as seen in the photo. Personally, I think these flip up sights are one of the coolest features of old rifles and I'd like to replace it assuming it was supposed to have one in the first place.

Four questions: First, should this rifle (1943 BSA) have come with a battle sight as issued? Two, if so are there any special considerations to keep in mind when looking for a replacement? Not overly interested in restoring to 100% original condition, but would prefer not to put a later model sight on this rifle if it can be avoided. Three, any suggestions where to look for this part? Lastly, if the rifle was not issued with a battle sight, how does one adjust elevation? I'm not seeing anything resembling an elevation screw anywhere near the existing rear aperture sight.

Thanks in advance.

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Goosic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Fairbanks007 Fairbanks007 wrote:

he!!o.

I just acquired my first Lee Enfield rifle, a No4 Mk 1. Overall it appears to be in reasonably good condition but seems to be missing the rear battle sight. It does not have the horizontal piece just above the bolt release as seen in the photo. Personally, I think these flip up sights are one of the coolest features of old rifles and I'd like to replace it assuming it was supposed to have one in the first place.

Four questions: First, should this rifle (1943 BSA) have come with a battle sight as issued? Two, if so are there any special considerations to keep in mind when looking for a replacement? Not overly interested in restoring to 100% original condition, but would prefer not to put a later model sight on this rifle if it can be avoided. Three, any suggestions where to look for this part? Lastly, if the rifle was not issued with a battle sight, how does one adjust elevation? I'm not seeing anything resembling an elevation screw anywhere near the existing rear aperture sight.

Thanks in advance.

The rifle would have left the factory with whatever sight was on hand at the time it was being assembled.  Such as one being assembled during the middle of a war. If the rifle was sent back for a FTR (Factory Thorough Repair), and that rifle had the Mk2 L type flip sight,it would sometimes be replaced with the Mk1. Alot of Savage made Enfield rifles used the Mk2 whereas the Canadian Long Branch would use the Mk3,Mk4,or C Mk4. If your rifle has the Mk2 L type flip sight,the sight itself is set for 300 and 600 yards respectively of which sight you are looking through and elevation is established by how well you can aim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 2:40pm
By your description, it sounds like you have the Mk 2 rear sight.  These were a wartime expediency.  Numrich currently has a used Mk 3 sight and a reproduction of the machined rear sight used on the No. 5 rifle, similar to the Mk 1 sight but with finer elevation adjustments and a range scale out to 800 yds.  These are nicely made sights.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by Fairbanks007 Fairbanks007 wrote:




The rifle would have left the factory with whatever sight was on hand at the time it was being assembled.  Such as one being assembled during the middle of a war. If the rifle was sent back for a FTR (Factory Thorough Repair), and that rifle had the Mk2 L type flip sight,it would sometimes be replaced with the Mk1. Alot of Savage made Enfield rifles used the Mk2 whereas the Canadian Long Branch would use the Mk3,Mk4,or C Mk4. If your rifle has the Mk2 L type flip sight,the sight itself is set for 300 and 600 yards respectively of which sight you are looking through and elevation is established by how well you can aim.


So conceivably a recruit could have trained with the ladder type sight and then been issued a rifle fitted with the L type flip up sight and just had to guess at holdover (or under) at anything other than 300 or 600 yards? Interesting. Wartime expediencies indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

By your description, it sounds like you have the Mk 2 rear sight.  These were a wartime expediency.  Numrich currently has a used Mk 3 sight and a reproduction of the machined rear sight used on the No. 5 rifle, similar to the Mk 1 sight but with finer elevation adjustments and a range scale out to 800 yds.  These are nicely made sights.  




I didn't see the Mk 3 sight on the Numrich site, looks like a lot of their rear sight parts are out of stock. I did find reproductions on the Liberty Tree Collectors site. I may pick up one of the sights for the No 5 that you described, the longest range I have access to is only 600 yards - no reason to have sight adjustments out to 1300 meters. Plus, I'd have to be shooting at a barn to have ANY chance of hitting something beyond 300 - 400 yards with open sights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 5:37pm
in 43 yours may well have had the expedient rear sight but it will accept any of those shown above , just have tp go through the effort to switch it , all are correct to the rifle 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 7:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Fairbanks007 Fairbanks007 wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by Fairbanks007 Fairbanks007 wrote:




The rifle would have left the factory with whatever sight was on hand at the time it was being assembled.  Such as one being assembled during the middle of a war. If the rifle was sent back for a FTR (Factory Thorough Repair), and that rifle had the Mk2 L type flip sight,it would sometimes be replaced with the Mk1. Alot of Savage made Enfield rifles used the Mk2 whereas the Canadian Long Branch would use the Mk3,Mk4,or C Mk4. If your rifle has the Mk2 L type flip sight,the sight itself is set for 300 and 600 yards respectively of which sight you are looking through and elevation is established by how well you can aim.


So conceivably a recruit could have trained with the ladder type sight and then been issued a rifle fitted with the L type flip up sight and just had to guess at holdover (or under) at anything other than 300 or 600 yards? Interesting. Wartime expediencies indeed.
They would have trained with a .22 counterpart first and foremost. ...and yes,the regiments were issued rifles with all the sights pictured, depending on where the rifle originated from, five different plants,you were issued a fully functional Enfield rifle,no more no less. Savage made Enfields, the No4Mk1* in particular, used the L type flip sight almost exclusively to speed wartime production. The main sight on the ladder type sight is set at 300 yards just like the L type. Unless otherwise instructed to use the ladder sight/Micrometer sight you were to use the main sight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stanforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 3:30am
Originally posted by Fairbanks007 Fairbanks007 wrote:

Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

By your description, it sounds like you have the Mk 2 rear sight.  These were a wartime expediency.  Numrich currently has a used Mk 3 sight and a reproduction of the machined rear sight used on the No. 5 rifle, similar to the Mk 1 sight but with finer elevation adjustments and a range scale out to 800 yds.  These are nicely made sights.  




I didn't see the Mk 3 sight on the Numrich site, looks like a lot of their rear sight parts are out of stock. I did find reproductions on the Liberty Tree Collectors site. I may pick up one of the sights for the No 5 that you described, the longest range I have access to is only 600 yards - no reason to have sight adjustments out to 1300 meters. Plus, I'd have to be shooting at a barn to have ANY chance of hitting something beyond 300 - 400 yards with open sights.

I fitted a sight for a No.5 rifle to my No.4 Mk1* and it is fine. over 800 yards I just use the 'click stops' to work out range. In fact I use the 'clicks' at all ranges over 200 yards.
I have a perfectly good MK3 sight but it would be difficult and expensive to get it to you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 3:58am
I have a No5 sight on my Savage No4 as it gives me 1/2 Moa, whilst the No4 sight is 1 MOA

The following is pretty self explanatory :

(A poster name 'Parashooter' posted this on another forum).

At least on these two examples (original sights), there appears to be a difference in screw diameter and pitch. Given the slightly coarser thread on the 800-yard sight, the "click value" would be some 10% greater than the 1300-yard sight if both were mounted on rifles with the same sight radius - except for the fact that the 1300-yard elevation screw is double-threaded, giving it an effective pitch approximately double that of the single-thread 800-yard screw.

On measuring the two sights shown, each click of the No.4's sight moves the slide .008" - vs. .0043" on the No.5's sight. Consequently, the 1300-yard sight gives very close to 1.0 MOA per click with the No.4 rifle's 28" sight radius while the 800-yard sight has a click value of ~0.66 MOA with the No.5's 23" sight radius and would yield ~0.55 MOA on a No.4 rifle. (Pretty much what Maxwell Smart reports in post #17 on this thread.)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 6:18am
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

I have a No5 sight on my Savage No4 as it gives me 1/2 Moa, whilst the No4 sight is 1 MOA.


I appreciate the information. Realistically, I'm never going to be able to take full advantage of 1/2 MOA adjustability. I'm just not that good of a shot, especially with open sights. I am leaning towards the No 5 sight, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 8:29am
I have always assumed '2 clicks to MOA' when using my No.4 with the No.5 rifle so that confirms what The Armourer says.
Two paths to the same answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 11:01am
I have a spare Fazackerly made Mk1. 200-1300 yards. PM me for a price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2020 at 6:44pm
Received the sight from Goosic today. A man of his word, it has been recently reconditioned and is in very good shape. It's going to look right at home on my '43 BSA No. 4 Mk 1. I'm going to have a go at installing it tomorrow. Hopefully it won't be too hard to figure out. Looking at the Mk 1 Micrometer sight, I totally get why the Mk 2 sight was more expedient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairbanks007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2020 at 7:33pm
I want to thank everyone for all their replies. I really appreciate all of you sharing so much information, and taking the time to educate me on these iconic rifles. 
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