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Mk 7z vs my Match Loads |
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britrifles
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Topic: Mk 7z vs my Match LoadsPosted: December 26 2023 at 2:57pm |
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Somewhere buried in the sea of electrons on this site is a post on chrono results of my regular match load and Canadian Dominion Arsenal Mk 7z ball ammo. I also measured several other combination of these two loads by pulling the bullets from the Mk 7z ammo and substituting the 174 gr Sierra MK and loading the Mk 7 bullet in place of the SMK in my regular match load (40.0 gr Varget).
I dug up the actual recorded data in my score book and came to some interesting conclusions, particularly how these two bullets of equal weight have quite different velocities out of a No. 4 barrel. Why exactly this is true I don’t know, but I suspect it is due to the thinner jackets in the SMKs and the fact that it is a boattail design. Here is the data; temp was 50 deg F, velocity measured with a Shooting Chrony approx 15 to 20 feet from the muzzle out of the No. 4 Mk I(T) and is the mean value for 10 shots: 1951 DAC Mk 7z. 2412 fps RP Case, 40.0 gr Varget, 174 gr SMK 2368 fps 1951 DAC Mk 7z, bullet subbed with 174 gr SMK 2476 fps RP Case, 40.0 gr Varget, Mk 7 Bullet 2366 fps First off, under the same charge of powder, the 174 SMK is considerably faster than the Mk 7 bullet. Service loadings gains over 60 fps with a SMK over the Mk 7 bullet. When loaded with 40.0 gr Varget, the Mk 7 bullet is similar to the SMK. My thinking is that the SMKs which have very thin jackets as compared to the Mk 7 bullet seal the bore better than the Mk 7 bullet. What this means regarding chamber pressures, I don’t know, but clearly, velocities change with different bullets even though the weights are the same. My 40.0 grain Varget match load is right in the middle of the Hodgdon load tables and has served me well in 200 yard match shooting with the No. 4. But, the vintage sniper matches are shot at 300 and 600 yards and it may pay some dividends to do some load development with the T at these ranges, particularly at 600 yds. I also intend to shoot the DAC 1951 Mk 7z at 600 yds and see how it performs, it was ammunition produced for the DCRA 1952 annual prize meeting at Connaught Range, it is very accurate at 100 yds, but I’ve not shot it further than 100x. One other note, the standard deviations of my 40.0 gr Match load are rather high, which probably explains some vertical stringing I see at 600x that is not noticeable at 200 yds. Some tuning may help with this, I may try a match grade primer. |
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Dragunov
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Posted: December 26 2023 at 3:31pm |
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Brit, I was wondering if this velocity difference holds true if powder charges are similarly tweaked. In other words, if the loads were at 39.5 grs and 40.5 grs, respectively, with those same projectiles. Not certain what that would prove or disprove. But do think that SMK's boatail is most likely the deciding factor.
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britrifles
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Posted: December 26 2023 at 3:47pm |
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I did notice that the standard deviations are quite high on the 40.0 gr Varget load with WLR primers, much much higher than my .308 Win 44.0 gr Varget load with 168 TMK and CCI BR-2 primers (which is in the single digits). I chrono’ed two ten shot strings with my regular match load and they were substantially different:
1. MV=2338 fps, SD=35.7 fps 2. MV=2368 fps, SD=21.0 fps So I think mid to long range accuracy with the .303 load is always going to be questionable. What I don’t know yet is if this is due to the relatively low powder charge or the primer or both. Some load development is in order. None of this shows up on the target at short range (100 and 200 yds), despite the large standard deviations in velocity, group sizes were very respectable. But, at 600 yds, I’m getting definite signs that the slow bullets are hitting low on the target. I’m now very keen on testing the DAC 1951 match ammo at 600 yds. Wished I had thought of that when I went out to shoot last Friday. One thing is for certain, I don’t want to shoot out this barrel playing around endlessly looking for a magic load, I need to think of a very efficient way of doing this, perhaps perform a ladder test at 600 yds. |
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Goosic
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 2:49am |
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(PREFACE: For testing purposes only, the rifle used was the 1944 Maltby made No4Mk1.)
I had 190 rounds of Winchester made1943 MkVIIz. I tore down two of the cartridges and weighed the (WC846?) Ball powder and both weighed out @ 44.6grns. Unfortunately I discovered that the two MkVIIz bullets had two different weights, with one weighing 171.9 and the other weighing 175.2. I took the remaining 46 rounds from the original 48 round cardboard box and chronographed those rounds with the chronograph set up exactly 8 feet from the end of the muzzle. The averaged FPS was recorded @2398.6 with only four of those reaching the Golden MkVIIz 2440 FPS. At 100 yards my first two ten shot groups averaged 1.47" MOA. At 200 yards the following two sets of ten shot groups averaged 2.94" MOA. The remaining 6 rounds were sent down range towards an 8" metal circular plate @ 300 yards. All six rounds hit their mark and staying at just under a 6" spread. I wanted to compare that to some modern handloads I had worked on. Using the 174grn FMJ-BT PPU projectiles and 39.0grns of IMR4064, IMR4895, Norma 202, and Varget with Federal GM215M primers for ignition, I loaded 4 sets of 20 rounds of each powder and recorded a averaged FPS of 2382 for the IMR4064, a FPS of 2387 for the IMR4895, 2442 FPS for the Norma 202 and 2414 FPS for the Varget. The accuracy for each was recorded at, from best to average to below par @ 100 yards was as such. Norma 202/39.0grns = 1.28" IMR4064/39.0grns = 1.55" IMR4895/39.0grns = 1.67" Varget/39.0grns 1.74" The Varget numbers had me perplexed because Hodgdons load data shows a minimum 37.0grns and a maximum of 41.1grns so I assumed that using the middle ground charge of 39.0grns would have produced tighter groupings. I was dismayed to learn that almost all other sources of information showed that 39.1grns of Varget was at maximum charge weight. I reduced the charge weight to match my IMR3031 load of 36.0grns and gained a significant amount of accuracy back albeit at a loss of FPS. The chronographed averaged FPS was recorded at 2364 while the averaged ten shot group measured in at 1.497" @ 100 yards. (I have noticed in the past that pushing the 174grn SP/BTHP/FMJ-BT projectiles over 2450 to 2500 plus FPS has a tendency to cause erratic flight patterns if not causing some of those bullets to lose complete stability and go divergent on all three axis.) My accuracy load using 36.3grns of IMR3031, Federal GM215M primers,.311 174grn FMJ-BT projectiles and a C.O.L. 3.110" as well as my load using 39.7grns of VihtaVuori N540, Federal GM215M primers, .311 174grn FMJ-BT projectiles with a C.O.L. of 3.110" outperform the Winchester MkVIIz Ball Ammunition by more than .55" under MOA for both loads as well as having the FPS down to 2144 for the IMR3031 and 2368 for the VVN540. For hunting using the 180grn SP I have found that 36.0grns to 38.0grns of IMR3031 will also outperform the MkVIIz ammunition out to 200+ yards with a mean spread of 2.2 MOA @ 200 yards.
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britrifles
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 4:08am |
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Did you happen to note the velocity standard deviations on those loads? Also, what powder charges on the handloads?
I also chrono’ed two 10 shot strings of the DAC ‘51 Mk 7z with 174 SMKs subbed in for the Mk 7 service bullet: 3. MV=2476 fps, SD=23 fps 4. MV=2507 fps, SD=14 fps So if I average these two strings and those of my regular match load above, I get: 1951 DAC Mk 7z 2412 fps 1951 DAC Mk 7z with 174 SMK subb’ed 2492 fps R-P Case, 40.0 gr Varget, 174 SMK 2353 fps R-P Case, 40.0 gr Varget, 174 gr Mk 7 2354 fps It seems odd that when loaded into Mk7z loads, the SMK gains 80 fps over a Mk 7 bullet, but there is no apparent change in average muzzle velocity when Mk 7 bullet is loaded into my regular match load of 40.0 gr Varget. One thing I can conclude is the 40.0 gr Varget load runs about 60 fps or more below Mk 7 service ammo (2440 fps nominal). Of the 20 rounds fired with 40.0 gr Varget and 174 gr SMK, the min and max velocities were 2271 fps and 2403 fps. That’s a large velocity spread for individually weighed charges which makes me suspect some of the individual shot recordings by the chrono. One would think handloads would have a much tighter velocity spread. I have chrono’ed these loads before, I’ll dig up those results. I’m also going to fire these loads again at the electronic targets that measure velocity, it may more reliable data. My 40.0 gr match load is giving 12 to 20 fps standard deviations at the targets (300, 600 and 800 yds) whereas the chrono was measuring 20 to 35 fps 15 feet from the muzzle. My .308 Win loads with 44.0 Varget and 168 TMK consistently gives standard deviations of 5 to 9 fps at the 100 to 1000 yd targets (not chrono’ed this load at the muzzle). |
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Goosic
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 4:40am |
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The second paragraph contains both the MV and charge weights of each handload.
The averaged deviation in muzzle velocities from low to high using the 174grn FMJ-BT was recorded between 12 - 15 FPS. It should be notated here that the averaged weight of the 174grn FMJ-BT projectiles were 174.7. The lowest weight recorded was 172.4 and the heaviest weight recorded was 176.2. The deviations in MV, bullet drop and on-target spread is due in large part to the projectiles non-consistency in weight...
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britrifles
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 5:34am |
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Interesting your Varget loads have 60 fps more velocity with one grain less powder than my loads. Must be the different bullet (PPU vs SMK).
Hodgdon on-line data for the 174 SMK is 38.0 minimum and 42.0 maximum. Pressure at 42.0 gr is 43,800 CUP significantly below the SAAMI max of 45,000 CUP (which is conservative for the Lee Enfield, particularly the No. 4). Notice that with a 174 Hornady round nose, max charge is reduced to 39.0 gr at 47,100 psi piezo pressure. Interpolating on the Hodgdon pressure data for Varget with 174 SMK, 40.0 grains would produce 41,300 CUP, quite mild for .303. Note that although Hodgdon publishes this data on their website, it is actually developed by the powder manufacturer, ADI. Hodgdon sells ADI AR2208 under the name Varget and their data is identical to ADI online published values for AR2208. We can trust the ADI data. With my DCRA 7.62 No. 4 Mk 2, best accuracy comes with midrange .308 Win Varget loads at 45,000 to 46,000 CUP. This load shoots sub-MOA prone with PH 5C sight out to 800 yds. 7.62 NATO loads can be as much as 50,000 CUP which presumably the No. 4 action is strong enough to withstand, although I prefer to keep loads to within 45,000 CUP. The way the barrel is bedded in the forend (location of barrel bearing) likely affects what bullet velocities perform best. My 7.62 DCRA is bedded at the middle band and free floating out to the muzzle and back to the reinforce. |
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Goosic
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 6:13am |
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My recorded and averaged FPS for the Varget is actually on par with my load data. The load data included a C.U.P. of 44,800 as well. This is load data for a 174grn BTHP/ 180grn SPT mind you and not for a RN projectile.
The rifle used for testing was my French Resistance No4Mk1 Maltby. It is as it was the day it left the factory with nothing modified by way of barrel bedding so, given that, the testing was as it would have been using a factory spec'd rifle with factory spec'd MkVIIz ammunition and then compared with modern-day handloads using very mild load data. Many, many moons ago, I was told by a very well known LR shooter, knowledgeable with the Lee-Enfield that "Accuracy is best achieved by decreased velocities" and "Speed is your enemy." I have lived by that principle for almost 40 years now and it has yet to fail me. My accuracy load for hunting using either a 150grn SPT or a 180grn SPT is with 36.3grns of IMR3031. It is also my accuracy load using a 174grn BTHP SMK. Load data shows a C.U.P. of 42,400 for all three bullet weights and a mean MV of 2303 with a plus of 8 - 10 FPS for the 174grn HPBT...
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britrifles
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 10:45am |
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Isn’t that curious. My experience is just the opposite. Loads that approach max for .303 and about equivalent to Mk7 velocities for an 174 gr bullet are the most accurate in my No. 4 rifles. While I find that mild loads give good short range accuracy, they show inferior results past 300 yards. At 600 yards, 174 grain bullets at low to modest velocities give inconsistent results. Occasionally, they do very good at 600 yards, in the 1.5 to 2 MOA range for 10 shots. The exception appears to be my DCRA 7.62/.308 Win. Best mid to long range accuracy with 168 TMK is at fairly high velocities, 180 fps higher than .303 Mk 7 specification, 2620 fps. The 175 TMK also shoots exceptionally good at long range when pushed at muzzle velocities of around 2550 fps, 110 fps above .303 Mk 7 velocities. I’m talking 1/2 MOA, shoots like a laser, only limited by shooter skill. These .308 loads produce about 45,000 CUP, perhaps a bit less as I’m seating bullets out longer than what is in the load tables. After firing several hundred rounds with these loads in the DCRA, there is no signs of excessive pressures. No primer flattening, very easy bolt handle lift, cases are on their 6th reload. I stick with 40.0 gr Varget with 174 SMK in my .303 because it is a mild load and produces good 200 yd accuracy, certainly sufficient to win the 200 yd vintage service rifle matches, but I’ll likely have to tweak this for the No. 4T used in 300 and 600 yd vintage sniper matches. I do plan to run a ladder test on the T to find the optimum charge weight in the range of 39.0 to 42.0 grains. I want to get 600 yard groups to be within the 10 ring (2MOA). |
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Goosic
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 11:24am |
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I have never had to worry about inferior or inconsistent results.
I have done my research and my work-ups and have a reliable and accurate handload, be it a 150grn or 180grn hunting round or, a 174grn BTHP/FMJ-BT target round. I did my fair share of competitive shooting and I have done and continue to do practical deer hunting. In that regards, my main objective is to be able to consistently and accurately hit a moving target at no greater than 300 yards. Anything beyond that is a waste of precious resources. Competitive Target Shooting is a good way to hone your skills at accurately hitting stationary targets all the way out to 1000+ yards and I did enjoy it for a time and occasionally still do but, I like knowing that I can pretty much hit anything moving out to 300+ yards reliably. My handloads are very consistent, accurate, and reliable. That is why I started using the VihtaVuori N540. It covers all three of my rifle calibers, .243W, .308W, and .303B and at the minimum charge weights for each caliber I keep the pressures down while still maintaining accuracy. I still keep IMR3031 on deck for the Enfields but, only for hunting purposes...
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Sapper740
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 2:47pm |
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I concur heartily with your comment regarding your experience with faster loads providing better accuracy which mirrors my experience. a 174 gr. SMK over 40 grains Varget is a dependable and accurate load in 3 or 4 of my Lee Enfields with BL-(C)2 a close second. Lower velocities are starting to reveal another problem: modern ranges with electronic targets don't accurately register sub-sonic bullets. There was a very interesting thread on another site discussing the problems with shooting the .308 Win./7.62 NATO round at 1,000 yds. The problem wasn't accuracy, it was the bullets weren't registering.
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britrifles
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Posted: December 27 2023 at 3:12pm |
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Sapper, yes that was my thread. My 40 gr Varget load tops out at 800 yds on electronic targets. It’s running under 1200 fps at that distance and giving warning messages. But that is a great short range load with good accuracy out to 300 yds. I use it exclusively in 200 yd matches. But, I’ve had mixed results at 600 yds, so I will do some tuning of the load with the No. 4(T) to try and reduce the vertical stringing that sometimes occurs.
I got lucky on the .308 loads, the Varget powder charge required to work the electronic targets at 1000 yds also gave best accuracy by far at 600 and 800 yds. But it’s a stout load, the recoil is noticeably more than 40.0 gr. I’m carefully monitoring headspace and throat erosion to be sure I’m not causing excessive wear on the rifle. I plan to use it exclusively for long range use, perhaps 4 or 5 times a year. |
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britrifles
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Posted: December 28 2023 at 5:39am |
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I dug thru my old notes from the early days of reloading the .303. My first loads were based on my Dads reloading data sheets and his powder. These were IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 loads with pulled Mk 7 bullets that Dad had.
I then obtained a copy of Steven Redgwell’s book “Shooting the .303 British”. It’s a good little book with a lot of load data. In the section of Match Loads with the Sierra 174 MatchKing, he stated that: “best results with these powders began at, or near maximum loads because of superior load densities”. He also said best results were with Re 15.
His book did contain Varget loads, a max load of 40.5 gr at a muzzle velocity of 2291 fps. This seems to reflect the very early load data for this powder. Current data for Varget (ADI AR2208) is substantially different. I don’t know if there was a powder formulation change at some point, but it is now very close to IMR 4064. Redgwell data for Re 15 gives a max of 43.5 grains at a muzzle velocity of 2427 fps. Armed with this, I went and bought some Re 15 and worked up my loads beginning at 40.0 gr Re 15 in increments of 0.5 grains. I did not have a chronometer in those days. With a 20x scope fitted to the Fulton Regulated Long Branch with BSA 5 groove with about 500-600 rounds thru it, I shot these loads off the bench. Sure enough, best accuracy was with 43.0 and 43.5 grains, sub-MOA at 100 yds and very consistent. Some years later, I got a chrono and was rather surprised that muzzle velocities were significantly higher than Redgwell’s data, about 2550 fps. I contacted Steve and we discussed this over numerous emails. He didn’t think this was an overpressure, but I decided to drop these loads down to Mk 7 velocities, 41.5 gr Re 15. Later, I dropped this load even further, to 40.0 grains, and that became my very first load for CMP Matches. Alliant’s data for Re 15 with a Speer 180gr RNSP gives a load of 42.0 grains but no pressure data. Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Manual gives the same max load for a 180 gr bullet. My first Varget loads were a dismal failure. I tried 38.5 grains with the Sierra 180 gr Flat base Spitzer soft point and got 6 MOA vertical stringing. I then tested the 174 SMK with 39.0 to 42.0 grains in 0.5 grain increments. 41.5 gr did best, but settled on 40.0 grains to keep pressures down. Velocities ran about 2350 to 2370 fps with 40.0 grains with good accuracy at 200 and 300 yds. I’ve stopped using Re 15 entirely. It’s a very accurate powder but I noticed it was sensitive to temp changes. Matches in cold weather had a different zero than hot weather. This is a double based powder and I made the decision to not use double based powders any longer. |
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britrifles
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Posted: December 28 2023 at 12:53pm |
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I now have a planned ladder test with the No. 4 T. The basic load is 174 gr Sierra MatchKing with Varget. Cases are neck sized PPU with 3 reloads on them, WLR primers. 174 gr SMK seated to 3.07 inch overall length.
I will load 30 rounds; three rounds at each charge weight starting at 39.4 gr in increments of .3 grains up to 42.1 grains. These will be individually weighed.
I shoot these in a round robin style, shooting one shot of each of the 10 different powder weight loads recording the bullet point of impact, then repeat this three times. The center of each three shot group of each powder charge is then determined and plotted. I’m looking for where at least three adjacent powder charge weights have similar elevation mean points of impact, i.e. an accuracy node. There may be more than one node, but I look for the most tolerant node to powder charge weight variation. I plan to shoot these at 600 yards prone with a front bag support per Vintage Sniper Match procedure making notes of any shots that were called off intended point of aim (that shot will be discounted). Once I find the optimum charge weight, I will load 40 rounds and shoot four 10 shot groups at 600 yds to compare group sizes with my current 40.0 gr Varget match load. The whole process will take 70 rounds. The goal is to find a load that will consistently shoot within the 2 MOA 10 ring on the US NRA MR Target. This is what it takes to beat out the 1903A1 Sniper and the Swedish M/1941 Sniper. |
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Mayhem
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Posted: January 04 2024 at 5:27pm |
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Viewing with interest Brit - looking forward to your results.
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