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MY Sporterized Parker Hale Deluxe Sporter

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Shamu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 6:23pm
I contacted on of my my Aussie buddies & guess what the trail led right back here!
Clown

plus this:
"

I just made a quick phone call to old Ken. Now Ken is in his late 80s and although he can't remember where he left his keys or that he put the milk in the cupboard and not the fridge he can remember the 50s and 60s very well.

He told me that the .303-35 cartridge is basically the .35 Winchester. So based on that I did a bit of internet searching and found this info:

https://www.chuckhawks.com/35Win.htm

The .35 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1903 in the Model 1895 lever action rifle. It was intended as the medium bore cartridge to complement the big bore .405 Winchester and the small bore .30-40 Krag in the Model 95.

Winchester factory loads drove a 250 grain soft point bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2195 fps with muzzle energy (ME) of 2650 ft. lbs. The .35 Winchester proved capable of humanely taking most of the world's thin-skinned game at moderate ranges.

Reloaders with serviceable .35 Winchester rifles can make reloadable cases from .30-40 Krag brass. The neck of .35 Winchester brass formed from .30-40 cases will be a little short, but this will not cause a problem. Because of its box magazine, the Model 95 can use bullets of any shape, including spitzer bullets, and it is not necessary to crimp the case mouth. Loading data can be found in old editions of the Lyman Reloading Handbook and also in Cartridges of the World. Medium burning rate powders such as IMR 4895, IMR 3031, IMR 4064, and IMR 4320 are good choices for the .35 Win.

My old 43rd edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook shows the following data for jacketed bullets.

  • 47.0 grains of 4320 gives a 200 grain bullet a MV of 2225 fps, and 52.0 grains of the same powder gives a MV of 2475 fps.
  • 46.0 grains of IMR 4320 can drive a 220 grain bullet at a MV of 2150 fps, and 51.0 grains of 4320 can achieve a MV of 2395 fps.
  • 45.0 grains of IMR 4320 can achieve a MV of 2045 fps with a 250 grain bullet, and 50.0 grains of 4320 can drive 250 grain bullets to a MV of 2295 fps, 100 fps faster than the Winchester factory load".

Here from two Aussie posters: (In the link above)

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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W.R.Buchanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 7:12pm
Honky:  Thanks but I am very familiar with the .35 Remington path to reloading this cartridge. Unfortunately the max loads for .35 Rem are only close to starting loads for  the .35 303.

I talked to Brian Pearce of Handloader, and Rifle Magazine today.  He suggested using .35 Winchester data, as that cartridge is made from the .30-40 Krag which is very similar to the .303 Brit. But it turns out None of my 15 or so loading manuals have any data on the .35WCF? They skip right from .35 Rem to .358 Win. even my Lyman 45 from 1971 which I started with, didn't even have the cartridge listed in the Obsolete Cartridges Section ? Teh .35 WCF is about .220 longer than the .303 case.

I know I want to keep pressures below .45K Psi for this gun, and by "Interpolation" I arrived at some usable loads using common powders like IMR4895, 3031, W748, Varget, and others I don't have. I used the data form Lyman 49 and crossed it to Hornady manuals, So I know listed pressures are consistent across the books.

Luckily Pressures and Velocities and Powder Charges are linier so it is mathematically pretty easy to fill in the blanks between starting and max loads and pick out the ones in the middle that do what you want.

I can get 2300 fps pretty easily with the 225 gr Sierra Game Kings I have with powder charges in between Starting and  Max loads for .358 Win that don't exceed even 40K psi.

Still there has to be proven loads for this cartridge from Epps, if I can only get them to take 5 minutes to send them to me .

I'm really blown away at how little info there is on this cartridge in the World of Archives. IE: Internet.

time marches on.

Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 7:15pm
Shamu:  Thanks that helps, I had seen that article but couldn't find it again to download.

Filling in the blanks here and what will result will be my loads for this rifle that I can post here.

I have a Chrony so once I get to desired velocities it will be good.

Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJ72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 9:18pm
For anyone interested. Ideal Handbook no 38.

35 Winchester load data. Not many current powders in the list though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJ72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 9:28pm
Appears what I was trying to post in my last reply didn't work. Here's my 2nd attempt.

From the Ideal Handbook no 38.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Sapper740 Sapper740 wrote:

That's a nice looking rifle!  I too am a fan of .35 caliber rifles and would be greatly interested in what kind of velocities you achieve with that that cartridge which looks like an 'Improved' round.  

Since I can't find any usable data for the .35 Winchester which was a opened up 30-40 Krag case I decided to do some interpolation using the .358 Win. data.

I did this by taking starting and max loads for.358 Win with 225 gr bullets for IMR4895 starting at 44 gr up to 49 gr. Since all the calculations are linier, simple math can get you there for all the Charge 
weights in between.

44 gr  2179 fps 38,700 psi
45 gr  2230 fps 40,880 psi
46 gr  2283 fps 43,000 psi
47 gr  2335 fps 45,240 psi
48 gr  2387 fps 47,420 psi
49 gr  2439 fps 49,600 psi

I went up to 49 gr which is max for .358 Win. but all of those are over my Self Imposed Pressure Limit of 45,000 psi. I'll start with 46 gr and then go to 47 gr,.

With 250 gr bullets. 39-43 gr min/max 

40 gr 2020 fps  42,475 psi
41 gr 2060 fps  44,750 psi

Max load of 43 gr was only 2182 fps but at 49,300 psi !

I saw no reason to go father here as I probably will never shoot 250gr Jacketed Bullets. 225's will do whatever I want.

All of the starting and max loads for .358 Win came out of Lyman 49 so I know the pressures are right and the velocities will be close in my 22" bbl.

I was warned by Brian Pearce to not use Ball Powders in Cases like this as the pressures aren't high enough to get clean burns and Erratic Ignition is frequent.

 I also have a 250 gr Bore Rider Boolit Mold coming from Accurate Molds which will probably be the most used boolit for this gun. I can shoot Short Range Silhouette with it and thus shoot a lot more.

So that's where I'm at right now. I still don't have a place to shoot so I am just building stuff.

Randy

It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2023 at 10:17am
Ellwood Epps was a bust!.  They had nothing, but I think it was more a situation of not wanting to try and find it.

I emailed them twice over the last week, but never got a response.

I called them yesterday and talked to the "Gunsmith"  He told me the new owners didn't have anything like that, and told me he replied to me,, except I already knew that He didn't!

So apparently the 11 pages of stories on CDN about that place was accurate.

It is a shame when people take over a great business and run it into the ground. I think the previous owners would have done the public a service by just closing the doors. And the Epps' name would not be sullied by the new owners.
 
I had a favorite restaurant locally that I had been eating at since 1976.  It recently changed hands and the new owner immediately started changing things, and then since nobody was coming so he changed the entire format from Philly Cheese Steaks, which had worked great for 50 years, to Tacos El Diablo?. Who wants to eat Tacos made by the Devil?  Nobody is coming now either.

All they had to do, was not Change Anything! The business was well established and ran perfectly,, 
but NO!

Life goes on.

Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2023 at 10:54am
I feel your pain Randy.

To many companies change hands and just turn to crap. New owners are going to change the way things that worked.

Our brave is world.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2023 at 2:59pm
Not all change is for the better.  I’d say most change is for the worse….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2023 at 3:48pm
I agree, things ran fine until  covid, now look at us,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2023 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Not all change is for the better.  I’d say most change is for the worse….
Change is what you make of it Geoff, good or bad. I was clinically dead for a total of 9 minutes, my left leg below the knee was internally severed, my right femur was shattered, my pelvis was fractured into three pieces, my right lung collapsed, every rib broken, my left eye socket was shattered, and I had retrograde amnesia for 21 days all because I decided to help a fellow truck driver who had jack-knifed his truck one night. After 7 years it is still hard to walk and I have constant pain below the waist. I am permanently disabled, and my sister, dad, and mom have disowned me because I did not give them any of the settlement money I received which was just enough to get me a used Ram truck. Am I mad at the driver of the SUV that hit me? Absolutely Not. Am I upset that my career as a professional over the road truck driver ended that night? Not in the slightest.  Change came to me as brutally as it could come, changing everything about me and who I was. I wake up now and am extremely thankful for being given one more day on this rock to be with my daughters and my fiance. I get to shoot some No4Mk1 Enfield rifles too!...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2023 at 3:23am
Its unfair to dis a business based on one experience and what other dycks on the internet say. Its still a viable and thriving business. may not have the best phone or internet manors; this does not make them a bad business. People actually still drive for hours to get there instead of ordering via internet.......

 Unfortunately when Elwood left us, his legacy  went as well.  The owners who took over, kept the gun shop running, its a place to buy/swap ammo, guns and other crap. Its the small town general store of the sporting goods world.
 As far as loading data goes, they probably still have all the archives from Elwood, but they`re not going to share it, it becomes a liability if something goes wrong.
 Back in the good ole days it`d have been written down on a scrap of paper for you and sent on your merry way.
Those days are long gone. I still do business with Epps occasionally, only because gun shops are becoming not that common any more and they usually have hard to find parts, but not bullet recipes.
Sorry for your poor experience with Epps, I like the place, you should go visit some time.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2023 at 4:06pm
Shiloh:  Kind of a long Drive for me. But if I leave now I can probably be there by Thursday. should I pick you up on the way?

I was pretty shocked at the 11 pages of negative comments about the place on Canadian Gun Nutz I figured that if there are that much negative stuff some or most must be true. 

They were of no help to me and even lied that they had answered my email which hasn't shown up yet.

I have managed to put some load data together that I think will get me started. I still don't have a place to shoot so all of it is on hold for the time being.

Shamu was a big help! ;>)

Randy
It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2023 at 5:26pm
FWIW, .35 Win data from my Lyman 41st Ed. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2023 at 4:15am
.358 Win from my Speer No. 7 Manual.  The text says loaded to 54,000 lbs mean pressure, I assume that is CUP, which is higher than the .308 Win.  These loads seem pretty high to me.  

This same manual gives max load of 43 gr IMR 4895 for a 180 gr bullet in the .303 British vs 54 gr max in .358 Win for the same weight bullet.  And, I don’t know if the 4895 you buy today is the same as it was 50 plus years ago.  

Perhaps use .303 load data and extrapolate back on bullet weight?  









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2023 at 4:51am
 .35 Winchester from Lyman 42 Ed.  Again, seems like pretty stout charges compared to .303.  Not sure how a heavier bullet allows for more powder (compared to .303). More case capacity with larger dia. Bullet of the same weight? 


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