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Odd chambering failure with SMLE. |
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Shamu
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Topic: Odd chambering failure with SMLE.Posted: April 02 2025 at 3:02pm |
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Someone who's a member on here took me up on my offer to check, out his family heirloom SMLE No1 MkIII no star. The bolt didn't match so we checked for clocking, lug engagement & headspace. It passed nicely equal locking lug engagement. H/S gauge failed the 0.067 No Go, But passed the Field 0.074 with flying colors, bolt handle stopped about 1/2" shy of closing. The F/P protrusion was fine too a hair over .450. Then we did a tear down & function check, all passed with flying colors too. While we had it nekked we gave it a C.L.A. & that slicked it up considerably. WE checked the muzzle with The Bullet Test, it's a little cord worn, but not dreadful.We also used a Hornady comparator to compare throat erosion against my low round count Lithy , it a little longer about .018" so there's some erosion. There was no fouling doing this test. Because of this I believe the constriction is somewhere in the shoulder area of the chamber. We reassembled & tried a known reliable Action Proving dummy It failed "the kerplonk test" about 3/8" from fully chambering. We double checked with a factory un-fired round & it was the same. Just to be sure we also cycled the same Action Proving dummies through my SMLE without a hitch. The chamber had been cast with Cerrosafe, & it refused to come back out. We tried all the reasonable tricks & eventually had to strip it down & use an electric heat gun to melt the Cerrosafe back out again. Unfortunately the Cerrosafe was tried before we ever tried to chamber a round. The problem seems to be an annular constriction at the front of the chamber right at the shoulder. We found this with a bore-scope. We could not get the .30 cal mirror past the constriction & you could hear it tapping against something. We switched to a .270 mirror & it went through with no problem. The barrel is well used but not shot out by any means.The throat, & Leade are fairly heavily craze cracked, which we think may have "grabbed" the Cerrosafe slug in the first place. Might we have some residual Cerrosafe still in there? Any thoughts or suggestions? |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Doco Overboard
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Posted: April 02 2025 at 3:26pm |
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Are you saying you think you may have some remaining cerro safe in the chamber? If that's the case, no pun intended you may get it out by touching with a chamber reamer, immersing the barreled action in boiling water, heat gun or maybe even by heating the reinforce up enough with a hair drier or heat gun and pouring more liquid cerro safe into the plugged chamber to bond to what remains in there. With the barrel and reinforce warmed enough, the new if nice and hot may melt right back combining it. Be sure to oil the chamber lightly before adding in the new molten cerro safe. Soon as it cools knock it all out with your clearing rod/plug in about a minutes time. Using the reamer would be the last resort. Let me know if you need any help I have all the stuff to do it except a heat gun. I only have an old hair drier that I use when casting chambers. Usually when you get a bad cast it's because the cerro cools to rapidly when introduced into a "cold" chamber. I don't think heat crazing from erosion would be enough to grab and hold a chunk but you never know, weirder stuff has happened I'm sure. |
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britrifles
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Posted: April 02 2025 at 3:30pm |
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That was my thought too as I read thru your post Shamu, some residual cerrosafe left in the chamber. Perhaps heat the chamber back up, wrap a patch around a bronze chamber brush and give it a good scrub, see if it gets deposited on the patch.
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Shamu
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Posted: April 02 2025 at 4:29pm |
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I'm not but the owner is. I wish he'd chambered a dummy BEFORE so we could be sure. I suggested using a bronze brush as a chamber brush while heating the area with his heat gun. It's stopping us dead in the water right now which is frustrating him no end since we got all the checks needed to have him comfortable firing it. Doco overboard: I'll pass you thoughts on to him, hes a good guy & can bring his heat gun with him. I think hes even closer to you than to me. Maybe all met up at Marshyhope & see what we can arrange between us. Chamber reamer was my last, best thought if that fails. Do you have a .303 Brit one?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Doco Overboard
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Posted: April 02 2025 at 4:56pm |
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Yes I have one with extension, and some casting metal if necessary. + other odd bits etc. We can meet at the club or other best location that suits.
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Shamu
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Posted: April 02 2025 at 6:25pm |
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I spoke with him on the phone. He's going to try the brush & patched brush first. I appreciate the offer, I'll keep you updated.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Sapper740
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Posted: April 03 2025 at 3:14am |
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Shamu, a rifle that's been around long enough to be a family heirloom has certainly been shot a few times so I'd question your friend and his family about what they know about the rifle's transition from chambering a round to not chambering a round. Who was shooting it? What were they shooting in it? What did they notice when the rifle stopped chambering ammunition? A rifle doesn't stop chambering ammunition by itself sitting on a rifle rack or in a display case so somewhere along the line someone did something, noticed something, or messed something up and their input, if available would be helpful in determining the issue.
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Shamu
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Posted: April 03 2025 at 11:35am |
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Unfortunately the old owner passed some time ago & the new one has no idea, as he never played with it before the chamber casting. It was just In Storage until recently.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Doco Overboard
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Posted: April 03 2025 at 2:47pm |
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Sounds good.
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Rossfield
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Posted: April 03 2025 at 6:10pm |
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Interesting as it is reminiscent of the "craze cracking" said to have been found in cadet rifles in the UK and given as the cause for the much-ballyhooed ban on firing No.4 rifles a few years back. Will have to borescope some SMLE barrelled actions I have and see if I can find anything similar.
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britrifles
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Posted: April 04 2025 at 4:24am |
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“Craze cracking”, known over here as “fire cracking” or just plain throat erosion, is the normal effects of the intense heat and pressure in the first inch or two in the bore forward of the chamber. It is progressive, meaning it gets worse the more number of rounds are fired. Eventually, small rectangular flakes of steel are carried away. It has the appearance of alligator skin when looking thru a borescope.
Barrel steel is being blasted away and it lengthens the throat to the point that bullets will not enter the rifling perfectly aligned and poor accuracy results. This is when the barrel is “shot out”. Cordite loaded .303 ammunition is known to cause more rapid throat erosion than nitrocellulose powder loads because of the hotter burning gases of the nitroglycerin content.
Contrary to popular belief, the lands forward of the throat do not experience any measurable wear even after thousands of bullets are fired. The so called “muzzle” wear is from either a chord pull thru or cleaning rod wear. Borescoping a barrel will give you a rough estimate on the number of rounds fired by the severity of the fire cracking in the throat, once you learn to recognize its progression after shooting out a few barrels. It becomes noticeable after about 500 rounds. |
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Rossfield
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Posted: April 04 2025 at 7:14am |
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What then of the often seen disappearance of lands the closer one gets to the chamber mouth? The effect, like the erosion and rounding over of lands in general, is usually very smooth; one might say polished. As for muzzle wear, anyone running progressively sized gauges down a SMLE or No.4 barrel will notice how there is often a few thou of wear or erosion for a few inches back from the muzzle. This is not cord wear, which typically occured in the part of the barrel circumference where the soldiers tended to let the cord rub against the muzzle. Not many of us use pull-throughs anymore; more often plastic-coated metal or fibreglass rods. I can't see much wear being due to those. Are those statements from a particular publication? |
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bubba ho tep
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Posted: April 04 2025 at 9:32am |
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For example your typical german 98 mauser - gew98 or 98k has a throat nominally as long as two to three bore diameters. The germans did this long tapered throat to alleviate high pressure rounds , and it actually induces less bore wear than shorter throats. It worked well for them. If the taper of the throat is eventually shot out then you get bad accuracy to even keyholing. I have rewatted many war bond gew98 rifles that had plugs in the muzzle and chamber . After I drill through plug I fire a 22 mag or HV 22 through it to knock out chamber plug - which is in the throat. More often than not the throat gets badly upset from when the plug was pressed in. I use a bit of a 5/16 drill bit dropped down the bore to butt against the remains of the muzzle plug and shoot it out from the chamber end. I counterbore barrel at muzzle . The damage to throat is almost always an issue for horrible grouping to consistent keyholing of bullets. I was only able to resolve this by either seating bullets so far out that the magazine is not useable with said rounds , or having chamber reamed out to 8mm/06. Before I condemn a barrel in 7.92 or 303 I'd try seating bullets to the maximum allowable for magazine use. You may find this brings life back into the rifle. Or single shot using overlength bullets to make up for worn/damaged throat.
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britrifles
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Posted: April 04 2025 at 1:02pm |
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The disappearance of the lands just in front of the chamber is throat erosion in the extreme. I put about 10,000 rounds thru the BSA barrel on my Long Branch No. 4 Mk I/3 and the lands were barely visible for the first 0.3 inches in front of the chamber. Cordite loads will obliterate the lands in the throat in fewer than 10,000 rounds. Keep in mind that the lands in the throat are tapered, they must be, from the full groove depth of approx 0.314 to the bore diameter of .303, so not a lot of land height this area to begin with. I’ve run pin gages thru all my barrels, and have not detected more than 0.0005” (half a thousandths) of bore wear (across the lands) except for the first few inches of the bore due to erosion, and this is after many thousands of rounds. Perhaps after 20,000 rounds there may be measurable land surface wear from the bullets passing over it, but at that point, accuracy is not existent. These are all my own experiences, and that of others who do a lot of shooting. Cleaning rods can indeed cause wear on the lands, especially if a rod guide is not used, and the rod is not wiped clean after every use. It was generally thought that poor cleaning techniques cause more wear on the lands than shooting thousands of rounds, and I tend to agree. But throat wear/erosion is unavoidable. Barrel life can be maximized by use of single based powders over double base (cooler burning), by minimizing rapid fire shooting and by keeping load pressure down. |
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Shamu
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Posted: April 05 2025 at 10:49am |
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"What then of the often seen disappearance of lands the closer one
gets to the chamber mouth? The effect, like the erosion and rounding
over of lands in general, is usually very smooth; one might say
polished."
I'll post some bore-scope images which will settle this. These are all in the section from the case mouth area through the free-bore, up to the leade & then transitioning to the rifling. I'd hardly call any of them "very smooth; one might say
polished." mouth. ![]() throat ![]() Freebore ![]() leade ![]() transition to rifling ![]() "As for muzzle wear, anyone running
progressively sized gauges down a SMLE or No.4 barrel will notice how
there is often a few thou of wear or erosion for a few inches back from
the muzzle. This is not cord wear, which typically occured in the part
of the barrel circumference where the soldiers tended to let the cord
rub against the muzzle." Respectfully I never claimed it was. I clearly stated: "We checked the muzzle with The Bullet Test, it's a little cord worn, but not dreadful" "Not many of us use pull-throughs anymore; more
often plastic-coated metal or fibreglass rods. I can't see much wear
being due to those." Oh I agree completely. Those that have or want oil bottles & pull through for the butt trap & historical accuracy we've regularly told not to use them, just keep them as a "historical accoutrements". Excessive wear is not present in this bore its lightly pitted & fairly well fouled with jacket metal. But that it. Lands & Grooves are there if a little rounded on the corners, it a shooter that over 100 years old so that to be expected though. Cord wear is, as stated confined to the crown & muzzle area. As for throat erosion I clearly stated: "We also used a Hornady comparator to compare
throat erosion against my low round count Lithy , it a little longer
about .018" so there's some erosion." that seems to contradict your comments ? |
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Rossfield
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Posted: April 09 2025 at 8:45am |
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Interesting debate britfrifles, regarding cleaning wear etc. Metallurgy alone would suggest a coated cleaning rod is going to have a hard time causing any bore wear, no matter how enthusiastically used, unless embedded with abrasive materials, but am of course familiar with the rationale behind cleaning rod guides. It was this this comment of yours which caught my attention:
But I see you've clarified it here:
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