Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Reloading > Reloading .303 British
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Primer data & accuracy
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Primer data & accuracy
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Kerryjack View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: April 29 2024
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kerryjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Primer data & accuracy
    Posted: September 01 2024 at 5:07pm
Hi again
After going down the headspace rabbit hole I am now deciding to seek actual applied data as opposed to personal opinions. Worked out well with my headspace issues so now I am after the same sort of data for primers.
I am told by various opinion sources that primers effect accuracy and while there is a plethora of opinions on the forums I cannot find any actual supporting ballistics data. If it does exist I am sure someone here will be able to point me in the correct direction.
I only shoot BAM using number 4 mk1 and a 303 P-14.
I contacted a competition barrel manufacturer through their FAQ's they suggested I will have more luck holding back the tide. They asked am I referring to "speed" or "accuracy"? Not sure the relevance of the question so I am asking in here. Save me looking like a shmuck.
I am willing and able to read through technical data as the technical data people usually remove or identify all the variables and then post actual data as opposed to opinions.
Thanks
Kerry  
Nobody
Back to Top
SW28fan View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: July 02 2007
Location: Texas
Status: Online
Points: 3388 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2024 at 8:52pm
The thing is primers Can effect accuracy. The load the individual and individual rifle are big factors.  One rifle and/or load may be very finicky and with another it does not matter much.  That being said I prefer Remington Large rifle primers when I can get them.
Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard
Back to Top
Kerryjack View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: April 29 2024
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kerryjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2024 at 9:21pm
SW28fan
If so, how do you know this and where is the data to support your views?
Not saying you are incorrect but all truths start out as the heresy of one. What I am looking for are the explanations from a quantifiable perspective.
As an example, a prominent poster on another forum stated that ICC primers were crap because his groups went to he!! when using them, ok, but I notice that shooters have won prestigious competitions and set impressive records also using ICC primers. Can both be right at the same time? If so, how and why.

Someone or some manufacturer would have tested primers and performance and would have published the data, even if only to progress their own commercial interests. The scientific reasons for the effect on accuracy when using certain primers would therefore be published. Where would I find the scientific ballistics data that explained the reasons and identified the primer makes? 

If the barrel manufacture did not agree with the accuracy claims I should imagine he only states this because of actual data. 

If a particular primer can have a 2 MOA effect at 200m with the type of rifle I am using, it would make sense to avoid that primer brand/construction. I don't want to get into chasing unicorns.
Thanks
Kerry
Nobody
Back to Top
Sapper740 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2021
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 1737 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sapper740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 4:08am
I've been handloading for nigh on half a century and couldn't begin to estimate how many metallic cartridges and shotshe!!s I've reloaded.  Still, I don't consider myself an expert as I've only been a casual competition shooter over the decades.  My goal, not always obtained is 1 MOA for my military bolt action rifles so I've done quite a bit of experimenting to get there with rifles only expected to achieve 3 or 4 MOA with service ammunition.  When working up handloads I take my Lead Sled to a climate controlled indoor range so environmental changes won't factor in such as wind gusts and extremes in temperature, especially here in Texas.  In my completely unscientific opinion here are what I perceive to affect .303 British chambered rifles accuracy the most:

1)  Barrel condition.  Self explanatory.
2)  Bullet.  I've had good results with premium bullets such as SMKs, LeHigh Target copper solids, and Hornady SST which consistently outperform the rest.
3)  Powder.  The .303 British cartridge dotes on Varget.
4)  Case prep.  All that entails.
5)  Bullet seating depth.
6)  Primer type.

Please, before you start spluttering over your keyboard to tell me I'm a boor that should never be around gentle society remember, these are my completely unscientific opinions.
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 5:19am
Yup, that’s about my experience too. Except I’d also add forend bedding condition with the Lee Enfield. Stock bedding in general affects accuracy of most wood stocked military service rifles.  

Here’s my list on the variables that affect accuracy with the Lee Enfield service rifle:

1. Shooter skill
2. Forend bedding
3. Barrel condition
4. Bullet choice and seating depth
5. Powder selection and charge weight
6. Cartridge case consistency (including case prep)
7. Primer selection

A word on item 4, bullet choice and seating depth. Some bullets are quite insensitive to how much jump to the lands, others are not.  The 174 SMK is insensitive to jump, so seat this to magazine length (I seat it to 3.05 inches to ensure reliable feeding for rapid fire stages). Seating longer reduces pressures, seating shorter increases pressure. 

You won’t find what you are looking for Kerryjack. There are some variables that can only be assessed empirically.   We can assess the effect of the primer by measuring bullet muzzle velocity with loads that use different primers (keeping all other variables the same).  It shows up with velocity extreme spreads and standard deviation.  The only rifle I’ve noticed a significant difference in primers was with my DCRA No. 4 7.62. For long range shooting (800 to 1000 yds) I use CCI BR-2 primers.  These give me the best (lowest) standard deviation, typically 5 to 9 fps.  Low standard deviation shows up on the target at longer ranges as reduced vertical spread.  All the other primers I tested gave me 15 fps and higher.   I did not test Federal Gold Medal Match, which may perform as good as BR-2.  The other variables associated with the cartridge load data can influence standard deviation too, so it takes experimenting to find a load that produced standard deviations below 10 fps.  Agree, Varget (ADI AR2208) is a great powder choice for the LE’s in .303 and .308/7.62.  

Also, in my opinion, you won’t see a significant accuracy difference with primer selection shooting at 200 yds and less.  Even at 600 yds, I can’t say I’ve noticed much difference on group size between different primers. 

For competitive service rifle shooting, the most benefit comes from concentrating on item #1 in my list above (shooter skill). You won’t improve by shooting off the bench, tweaking loads and testing different primers.  All of these little variables tend to “get in your head” and are detrimental to item #1 on the list.  I know because I’ve been there. I spent far too long in load development shooting off a bench. All I succeeded in doing was to reduce valuable barrel life.  Yes, some load development is needed, but it can be greatly minimized by making good component selection from what we know works well in the .303.  
Back to Top
shiloh View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 08 2019
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3049 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 7:32am
Here`s  what I know about primers, they create a spark that ignites the powder which makes an awful loud noise sending the bullet to its intended target.

I`m with Brit and Sapper on this. I also have been loading for decades, I`m not a competitive shooter but rather a hunter. Coming from the military, I see things in minute of man at all range distances, or minute of deer, grouse, wolf, groundhog etc...

I use what ever primers I can find locally usually Canpro or CCI, I have use magnum primers where needed(if the recipe calls for it).

Learn the skills required to become a proficient shooter and stop chasing MOA with rifles that are not designed to print 1" groups at any distance.
Service rifles were designed to kill people efficiently, a human body is a big target 4-6 moa is sufficient to do that job.(no offense to anyone who may be squeamish)

And as with all, some service rifles by happen chance, shoot much better than others, ie Lee Enfields. Those particular rifles usually ended up being turned into TR rifles, and still they`re only as good as the shooter behind them.

 
Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 7942 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 8:18am
I do like when I can make a nice group on my target or get the Grandbabies to keep it on target.

The end game took is to put Bambi or Porky in the freezer.

 No Bullwinkle in the Carolinas you can shoot.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
Doco Overboard View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: January 26 2020
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doco Overboard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 8:36am
Finding specific data on primers I think may be difficult because it's my understanding that specific methods are closely guarded by the manufacturers. Trade secrets if you will, as far as compounding mixtures, charging primer cups establishing brisance, safety in manufacturing and that sort of thing.
As far as accuracy, I never a read a source that dealt with good maintenance of accuracy that didn't name consistency/quality in the manufacture of the bullet specifically the envelope or jacket as being the most significant factor in determining overall performance characteristics in well made ammunition and arms with compound bullets.
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 20510 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 11:46am
Primers can definitely effect POI. Not group size, but where that group prints.
I was obliged to use Tula "KV-B 7" LR primers some years back because they were all that was available.
They had several issues.

Jamming in the Dillon RL500b primer feed tube.
(once irrevocably, Dillon replaced the tube because bashing on a stack of primers is a bad idea.)

Refusing to seat in cleaned reamed & uniformed primer pockets. The same pockets treated in the same way had never had a problem before or since!
(They jammed up on the mouth & jammed up the press several times. Unlike the normal 'smooth resistance" of a primer seating from everyone else they "snagged & jumped." when seating. I wonder how many primer pellets were cracked or damaged during all this?)
Accuracy & POI both changed during this unfortunate episode & I keep the remaining loads with them as "reserve & practice" ammo. I'm slowly whittling it away.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 12:04pm
Shiloh put it succinctly. And Doco also mentioned a good point in that accuracy stems from consistency in quality of the manufacture of components. Bullet jacket envelope thickness being probably the most significant factor in accuracy. 40 years ago, few bullet makers could achieve this, but now we have many excellent bullets.  

Getting any WWI or WWII service rifle to consistently hold 1 MOA is exceedingly rare, nearly impossible, especially with original sights. Scoped off a bench, it’s possible.  Shiloh is quite right of course, these rifles were not designed for the purpose of target shooting, especially not Benchrest shooting. They were intended to hit an enemy soldier out to about 500 yds with aimed fire in the hands of a trained soldier. 

If we are completely honest with ourselves, we would rate the Lee Enfield (good barrel and well fitting forend) as a 2 MOA shooter with match quality ammunition. This is shooting prone unsupported with the aid of a sling and aperture sight.  Yes, it can do better at times on a very good day.  I’ve shot a number of 10 round groups around 1.5 MOA and sometimes a bit better.  But these are very infrequent and involve a certain amount of luck when errors in aim, hold and the normal dispersion of bullet point of impact on the target cancel out to some degree.  I say this from some level of experience in shooting tens of thousands of rounds in service rifle competition.  In all this shooting, only once did I put 10 consecutive shots in the 3 inch X ring at 200 yards in a match with my No. 4, that’s a 1.5 MOA group.  I’ll probably never do it again. 

In all of this, primers make the least difference.  Ive used CCI #200, CCI #34, WLR, Federal 210 and others with no perceptible accuracy difference with the one exception of the CCI BR-2 at long range in my DCRA No. 4 7.62mm conversion.  CCI #200 and BR-2 primers are identical except they take additional quality control measures during manufacture of the BR-2 which results in a more consistently controlled ignition of the powder charge.  
Back to Top
Sapper740 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2021
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 1737 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sapper740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Getting any WWI or WWII service rifle to consistently hold 1 MOA is exceedingly rare, nearly impossible, especially with original sights. Scoped off a bench, it’s possible.  Shiloh is quite right of course, these rifles were not designed for the purpose of target shooting, especially not Benchrest shooting. They were intended to hit an enemy soldier out to about 500 yds with aimed fire in the hands of a trained soldier. 

Too true.  Despite using every trick in the book to get consistencey in my handloads as well as shooting from a Lead Sled at an indoor range with no gusting winds or boil and a perfectly illuminated target I have only once achieved 1 MOA from a Lee Enfield rifle.  As soon as I go to an outdoor range shooting off bags my groups open up.  Even with my Fulton regulated No. 3 and PH5A rear sight the best at the indoor range is 1.5 MOA.  Many of my rifles struggle to achieve 2 MOA off the Lead Sled indoors.  Take them outside on a hot gusty Texas day and the groups are usually twice that.  
Back to Top
shiloh View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 08 2019
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3049 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 1:41pm
I  concur, It is a whole different game when playing with mother nature. That being said, I can usually hit a groundhog dead every time with my 1941 BSA No4 out to around 150yrd, or close enough to scare it to death lols. Depending on terrain I`ll shot prone or sitting supported(rock, log stump etc).
Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 7942 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 2:01pm
That works for me.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
Kerryjack View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: April 29 2024
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kerryjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 2:21pm
Snapper740, your "Please, before you start spluttering over your keyboard to tell me I'm a boor that should never be around gentle society remember" comment tells me you have run into some unappreciative bafoons in your travels, I am not one of them.
I came to this forum for knowledge based on experience and I always leave a more knowledgeable person. I am a two ears - one mouth type of person.
The barrel maker was right, I will not find what cannot exist.
The one thing that stands out from the experienced based comments comes back to learning fundamental skills as the starting point, the one item that is not for sale.
All I want to do is shoot my BAM rifles as well as my skill level will allow. Maybe people don't want to tell me my skills are not so good and this is why they seem to want to send me down rabbit holes looking for the panacea that they believe exists in a distant place.
What I take from all the experienced based comments is, the quality and tolerances of my BAM rifles will never operate at a level where the (alleged) performance differences between primers will be a defining element of accuracy.
I will hear the noise, nod politely and acknowledge the offer of support and then concentrate on the real culprit, me.
Thank you all for the experienced based comments and not populous rhetoric.
Kerry 
Nobody
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Georgia, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 3:55pm
All of my comments pertained to shooting outdoors.  It’s been many years since I’ve shot at an indoor range.

 When my Fulton built Long Branch No. 4 was “new”, I shot a few hundred rounds of Canadian Mk 7z WWII surplus ammo thru it at an indoor 100 yard range with PH 5c sight. It grouped at about 2.5 inches. When I changed to handloads (outdoors) and fitted a scope, that shrunk to 1.25 to 1.5 MOA off the bench. Moving to prone and back to aperture sight, 1.5 to 2 MOA (outdoors).  That’s about as good as it gets. 

We had a member here that routinely posted targets with 10 and sometimes 20 rounds with extreme spreads under 1 MOA, sometimes as small as 1/3 MOA, rather unbelievable. Minute of Internet some would say….
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16998 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2024 at 7:11pm
i dont load the kind of rounds yall do - mine are low velocity by design for both my cowboy action rifles , revolvers [around 650fps] and shotgun [around 860-950fps] and then there are my antiques that i also download for as plinking fodder , i run factory loads in my modern stuff but not for competition anymore as i gave up three gun a good number of years ago so i load whatever primers i can find ....cheaper the better , 

i do load a lot each year as in 1000s , but everything is relative to what im shooting , i havent loaded for trap/sporting clays in at least five years now so that reduced my needs a bunch and i have over 7000 of my cowboy shotgun loaded right now so i may let that machine just set for this year , 

i am working up a 4570 load dfor long range in my sharps but thats more a hobby right now ....but i have a fair stock of one lot primers to get that done and load all my brass - im loading federals in that 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.07
Copyright ©2001-2024 Web Wiz Ltd.