Print Page | Close Window

Need Help identification on this Bayonet

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Bayonets
Forum Description: General discussion about bayonets for the Enfield rifles
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12096
Printed Date: June 03 2023 at 8:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Need Help identification on this Bayonet
Posted By: The Apprentice
Subject: Need Help identification on this Bayonet
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 1:36pm
Fellow Enfield collectors my friend who sold me the M4t Enfield Sniper found this and believes it will fit on the mark 4 T barrel 
I am not sure so I hope you experts can help me on her identification 

Hope the pictures enlighten us 
Jeff


-------------
New to Enfield’s



Replies:
Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 1:39pm


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 1:42pm


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 1:44pm


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 1:46pm
Finally a picture of my muzzle to show how the bayonet attaches 



Any help you guys can come up with is greatly appreciated 


Jeff


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: Enfield trader
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 2:18pm
The bayonet is for the No1 MKIII rifle and will not fit a No4


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by The Apprentice The Apprentice wrote:

Here are all the various No4 spike and No9 blade bayonets that fit on your rifle. As an added bonus the No7MkI L blade bayonet with the swiveling pommel will also fit your rifle...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 2:44pm
From top to bottom:
No4 MkII 
No4 MkII*
No4 MkIII 
No9 MkI P.O.F.
No9 MkI South African Armscor
These are all designed for the No4Mk1 Enfield rifle...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 2:58pm
While this No7 MkIL bayonet was intended for use with the MkV Sten Submachine Gun, it will also fit the the No4Mk1 Enfield rifle.


Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 3:37pm
Thank you Thad for your reply. it helped me that’s for sure.


Thank you Mike for your post if I remember correctly one of your bayonets is now mine 😊
However I appreciate the pictures & your post   😉


Is that 16” worth $300 ? What is the demand on a Number 1 Mark III.  ?


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2022 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by The Apprentice The Apprentice wrote:

Thank you Thad for your reply. it helped me that’s for sure.


Thank you Mike for your post if I remember correctly one of your bayonets is now mine 😊
However I appreciate the pictures & your post   😉


Is that 16” worth $300 ? What is the demand on a Number 1 Mark III.  ?
More commonly encountered Pattern 1907 without the hooked lower quillon.

British makers include the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield; and the following British government contractors:

—James A. Chapman
—Remington Arms Co. (USA contractor)
—Robert Mole & Sons
—Sanderson Bros. & Newbould Ltd.
—Vickers Ltd.
—Wilkinson Sword Co.

I know of one that has been sitting in a glass case for at least 5 years now with a $225.00 price tag on it and it has yet to sell but, out here in Phoenix Arizona,  it's not going to...



Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: June 19 2022 at 5:10am
Its an interesting bayonet, looks to have had the original makers mark scrubbed then Wilkinson over stamped during a refurb in Aug 1917.
OTC is Officer Training Corps
BDS would be the college or university, the numbers probably its rack number.
From what I gather definitely a keeper, rare to find an OTC bayonet


-------------
shoot em if you got em


Posted By: SGonger
Date Posted: June 19 2022 at 7:18am
Originally posted by shiloh shiloh wrote:

Its an interesting bayonet, looks to have had the original makers mark scrubbed then Wilkinson over stamped during a refurb in Aug 1917.
OTC is Officer Training Corps
BDS would be the college or university, the numbers probably its rack number.
From what I gather definitely a keeper, rare to find an OTC bayonet
Ditto ^^^^
It kinda looks like (Chapman scrubbed) to my poor eyesight.
A rear photo of the (cross guard,quillon) would be interesting if possible.
$300.00 with the scabbard & frog not unreasonable IMO.
Cheer’s.


-------------
Anyone seen the Tardis Box anywhere? 🤨


Posted By: Enfield trader
Date Posted: June 20 2022 at 11:27am
I would not pay that much for that bayonet - more in the realm of the MOLE, Vickers, early RFI or Remington for that price. But some collect them based on being unit marked. 

Oh and you are welcome - and the above is just my opinion.



Posted By: The Apprentice
Date Posted: June 20 2022 at 11:49am
Gentlemen 
Thank you for the replies 
Since this won’t fit my current Enfield sniper I have told the owner that I will pass hopefully it goes to someone who can use it


-------------
New to Enfield’s


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 20 2022 at 5:40pm
the 26 looks like a refurb date , thinking the clearing hoole was added as the early ones lacked that ,the scabbard is the early one with the almond shaped stup the later had the round button , very common for WWI bayonets , it looks a very nice set from the photos , not sure on the $300 - that depends a lot on current markets , ive not been in the buying mode for quite a while but was a tad high back when i was , yet finding a complete blade scabbard and frog in that condition could be a challenge 


Posted By: JJJ
Date Posted: August 11 2022 at 7:12am
This is a 1907 pattern bayonet for the smle number 1 Lee Enfields, it fits all the variations up to the Number 1 mark lll*, unfortunately not for the number 4. It was made by Wilkinson, datestamped 8/ 1917. I have a similar bayonet made by Sanderson datestamped 3/1917.

-------------
Pensioner, classic type arms like muzzle loader, early Colt and Remington handguns and Milsurp guns enthusiast


Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: August 11 2022 at 12:38pm
I thought this was a new thread, my bad.


-------------
shoot em if you got em


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: August 11 2022 at 2:50pm
I don't understand the question, sorry. What are you looking for?


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: August 11 2022 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I don't understand the question, sorry. What are you looking for?
The original question was asked if a 1907 Pattern bayonet would fit a No4Mk1.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: August 12 2022 at 1:08pm
Ok NOW I unnerstann.
The P-14 versions had "lines, or grooves" cut across the Wood scales to identify them a being for the different muzzle size & shape of the P-14 from the SMLE which they wouldn't fit although looking similar at a glance.
like this:
https://militaria.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/4-16R-2-scaled.jpg


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: August 12 2022 at 5:20pm
that is correct - except in a couple rare early instances , i think it was the vickers made that had the same smooth scales , but then those are so rare that we seldome see them and i doubt many got into the supply lines , i ve only seen one , 


Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: August 13 2022 at 3:13am
The BDS stamp on the pommel has me stumped! 

BD usually signifies the county of Bedfordshire and BGS stands for Bedford Grammar School. 
BDS is not listed in Skennerton's The Broad Arrow so my best guess is that it might be a miss stamp for Bedfordshire Grammar School or possibly a stamp for just Bedfordshire School. 
Having said that Skennerton's book has many missing stamps which have surfaced since it's publication(s). 


-------------
Mick


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: August 13 2022 at 3:09pm
"Bristol Grammar School" also used "BGS" on a bunch of stuff, & they had a CCF, what, if anything it was marked I have no Idea though.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 02 2022 at 1:12am
Goodday gentlmen..

The '07' i  question in the original post, was manufactured by - Wilkinson Pall Mall. The 'pall mall' section... ( always underneath the 'Wilkinson' ) is very sparsely stamped, though still discernable. 

Sarge.


-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!


Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 02 2022 at 1:19am
'Shamu'.... Are you referring to the rifle or bayonet in this instance??? 'P14' = The rifle. The bayonet you illustrate is a 'P13'. The Americans had two versions of the same bayonet... the Model 1917 ( M17 ), and the Model 1917 - mistamped as 1918. many American's refer to the P14 as the non-existent 'P17'.

-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 02 2022 at 12:15pm
The version of the bayonet made to fit the Pattern 14 Rifle, not the rifle itself, nor the U.S. M1917.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:58am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

The version of the bayonet made to fit the Pattern 14 Rifle, not the rifle itself, nor the U.S. M1917.

Appreciate you clarifying that 'Shamu'. I thought you might be slipping there for a second.  


-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:26pm
just so we dont mislead here - 

the american companies remington and winchester produced the pattern 1913 bayonets for the P1914 rifles first for contracts for the commonwealth , then later when those were done the remarked some to M1917 for their american contracts for the M1917 rifles , 

yes there were a few that were marked 1918 by accident as per common US practice for the M1905 but this was corrected , 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:34pm
Oh I am slipping.
I know it
I dislike it.
But I am not the person I used to be.
Please feel free to correct if needed, I promise I wont get mad if it's legit.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:54pm
i hope i didnt overstate , but just for S&G the Pattern 1913 and Model 1917 bayonets will interchange between the P1914 rifle and M1917 rifle ....just not the no1 mkIII-III* that required the P1907 blades  [that was the design for the P13 and M17 bayonets]  hope that helps more , 

the US continued the cross cuts as the canadians and others were using both P14 & M17 rifles 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:11pm
That's good to know. Its outside my field of expertise though.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:33pm
its one of the areas i spent a lot of time on , i owned a lot of the rifles both P14 and M17 at one time , way more than i had when i came here [near 30] as well as the bayonets , i had sold most off keeping only the few ive posted here because they spoke to me , ill not pretend to be an expert but i did know a lot of these and only share what i know to be true as there is a lot about these out there that is net falsehoods , like the three american companies sharing parts - totally false - they each had contracts to fill for both the brits and the US and some problems existed , mostly for winchester , 

but i digress , the P13 is the topic and only the two made these , after the P13 rifle was abandoned the brit contracts to their domestic bayo mfgrs fell away in preference to the commonwealth production demands for the P07 


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: December 06 2022 at 1:21am
An interesting progression in the P13/M17 bayonet markings:
1) British, P13
2) British cancelled, US, P13
3) American, P13    (Help!)
4) American, M17



Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 06 2022 at 7:42am
'terrylee'...

I don't think your fully aware of the various steps during the progression from P13 to M17, and as such,,, are getting yourself a tad confused with what you refer to as the--> American P13. 

Let me take you through the full progression. Listed below are the various stages from P13 to M17 ( mistamp )...
1) Enfield Trials Pattern-1913 bayonet ( two production dates ).
2) Pattern-1913.
3) Vickers Production Pattern-1913.
4) Early production Model-1917.
5) Cancelled British inspector stampings ( two methods = Cross-Hatched & Peening ).
6) Fully U.S. Arsenal stamped Pattern=1913.
7) Standard production Model-1917 ( with Clearence Hole in pommel ). 
8) Standard production Model-1917 ( mistamped as 1918 ).

Let's look at items 5) & 6) from the listing above. Hopefully, aster reading this, all will be clearer, and the pieces will fall into place.

Cancelled British Inspector Stamps - Cross-Hatching.



When America entered WW1 in April of 1917, it soon became apparent that there was a desperate shortage of rifles and bayonets. The cancelled British P14 Rifle and P13 Bayonet contracts left the USA with approx 250,000 Bayonets waiting for a new home. The P13 Bayonets, after purchase from The UK, were added to the U.S. Arsenal by cancelling out the British Inspector Stamps, then adding the letters U.S. ( as illustrated above ). There was also a second method employed which achieved the same aim = Peening.

Cancelled British Inspector Stamps - Peening.



Peening served the same purpose as Cross-hatching. Along with the added 'U.S.', it served to show that the item thus stamped was fully a U.S. Military item.

British Pattern-1913 - Full U.S, Arsenal Stamped.

In order to show American ownership of P13 examples which had not Been through the Bristish Inspection System... another method was needed. The method used, was the same as used on standard production Model-1917 bayonets.



*NOTE*

The methods illustrated / described above, apply only to Remington produced examples.




-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!


Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 06 2022 at 8:07am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

i hope i didnt overstate , but just for S&G the Pattern 1913 and Model 1917 bayonets will interchange between the P1914 rifle and M1917 rifle ....just not the no1 mkIII-III* that required the P1907 blades  [that was the design for the P13 and M17 bayonets]  hope that helps more , 

the US continued the cross cuts as the canadians and others were using both P14 & M17 rifles 

'A square 10'

I think this is what you were trying to say. Thumbs Up







-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: December 06 2022 at 10:38am
Sarge, I don't think you understood the purpose of my post.  I was merely referring to the markings of the bayonets in question! I find the one with an original US crest plus the 13 rather out of place! 



Posted By: Sarge
Date Posted: December 06 2022 at 12:03pm
'terrylee'...

Righto! I presume your referring to the P13 with full U.S. Arsenal markings.... the last item I illustrate. The ( HELP! ) indicator after the 3rd item on your list gave some idea of what you were after. I merely placed that portion into context. As I've shown + explained... it's not out-of-place, although I can fully see how you see it that way. Look at it as a natural progression.... the final step inline... from P13 to M17.


-------------
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net