Central Bisley sight.
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: After Market Enfields
Forum Description: What have you done to that Enfield??
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12241
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 3:48pm
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Topic: Central Bisley sight.
Posted By: shiloh
Subject: Central Bisley sight.
Date Posted: September 18 2022 at 9:27am
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Was at a gun show this morning and picked up a Central sight. https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/035-jpg.725609/" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/035-jpg.725609/ I know it needs a longer trigger guard screw(need one of those), Not sure how the safety works, maybe a special spring?, will need one of those, and the parker hale aperture has been gutted, so i`ll need one of those as well. Any suggestions or help, feel free to chime in. Hoping to be able to get this up and running for my 1915, then I might be able to hit something with it lol. So in short its complete with base mount minus the above mentioned.
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Replies:
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 18 2022 at 11:57am
| I think Shamu just installed one of these. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 18 2022 at 5:54pm
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Yes, I've just found the last few bits & pieces to fit it! [EDITED] Congratulations you have the "No1" mount, so it will attach to an SMLE I'm not sure of the "Bisley" nomenclature, they came in several small variations. Mine is a Mk4, what, if anything is stamped on the rear face of the elevator. (L-shaped top half)? Does it say 7.62, or .303 anywhere? Some were 1/2MOA clicks, some 1/4 MOA & even more 1/3rd MOA! Mine is 1/2 MOA. The safety uses a slim coil spring, replacing the existing washer & the shaft extends through the lower rear hole in the mount. I couldn't find an original one spring but a pair of spring washers of this type did the job perfectly! The grooves on the mount plate are all unique, even though they all look the same. This replaces the need for "Matching" upper & lower assemblies. That's not an original mounting bolt BTW, but it probably works fine, the original is a "LeverLock" screw from Omark, they are rarer than rocking horse poop. I sourced one from Australia as there is no record of one in the USA! Look carefully at the bottom rear mount hole! It should have a threaded adjusting screw, screwed into it. The rear trigger guard screw goes through the center. That is used to level the sight when installing basically you tighten/ loosen it to "square the arm" with the existing rear-sight of your rifle. You sight in at 100yds, ignoring the sliding zero plates when dead nutz on you back of the screws & slide the scale plates to "0" & "0", from then on you "count clicks" for different ranges, but in practice the engraved scales are close enough for a 180 Gr full house load to 400yds. Anything else you use the clicks & keep good notes. If you can find Parker-Hale screws for a PH-5A P-H5c or similar, depending on the rifle you're using those will work fine as substitute!  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 18 2022 at 6:11pm
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more: Some pics: There really isn't a "manual" for these. What little I have is what passes for one though. 3/16th x 32 TPI thread “Central Leverlok” screw.Aka“quick release clamp screw” Also used on “A.E. Clark” &
“Linx” sights Eyepiece threads Arm
9.5mm female For “Centra” or “Gehnamm” or adapter to 7/32” male thread (Parker-Hale)
a couple of "almost right" screws that work. They have these at "Home Despot" in the "hardware aisle" as they are used as electrical screws here. They're a tad off, but its such a short threaded hole they'll work in a pinch. This is the correct "LeverLoc". You can also (just) see the spring washers, The "Gehlen" adapter to P-H (the knurled cylinder in front of the 6-hole eyepiece,you may, or may not have this) & the "elevator" in the rearmost of several mounting holes.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 2:11am
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Thanx for the reply, very helpful. The peep aperture on the one I acquired is a PH60 albeit gutted, I`ll try to find a 6 hole disc and screw but doubtful, probably just find a replacement. The mounting bracket I guess could be universal if you`d want to drill a hole in your N04 butt socket, I`ll be using this with my 1915 endfield lock. Now the screw that holds the upper part to the lower has Central stamped on its face so I`ll assume its correct to this set up. The one I got is the exact same as the one pictured in the link I posted. I have to ask though, what in blazes is that superfluous knurled brass screws` purpose in life, I`ve not seen it in any pics on line? And yes mine has the lower adjusting insert, very clever, does away with having to use shims. So all in all, my central is pretty complete save the aperture and a extended rear trigger guard screw, I`ll be visiting my local smithy to see if he may have one or at least make one for me, he may even have some PH parts laying around. One Q regarding the safety lever, My rifle has volley sights so does not have the notched disc, will I need to get that notched disc/spacer thingy, or just use an appropriate sized compression spring and some washers?
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 2:13am
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I should also note that on the elevator, it is noted that one click equals one inch at 100yrds. dosn`t seem that fine of an adjustment. |
Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 3:14am
An often asked question in the UK regarding older sights. I have little knowledge of Central sights but I have to say I like the look of this one very much! When the question is asked of AJ Parker & Parker-Hale sights the clue is to be found on the range scale; 303 sights go up to 1200 yards and 7.62mm sights to a 1000. I still encounter shooters who don't understand that MoA is universal regardless of whatever rifle it goes on! ------------- Mick |
Shamu wrote:Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 6:06am
It does not indicate calibre, but the elevation scale goes to nearly 1300, so I`ll assume .303. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 10:32am
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My mistake, sorry. My "universal" has one extra hole that bolts to the No4's safety spring mounting, yours is a Mk1 for the SMLE! You can just see it peeking out from in front of & below the lever lock bolt. I wish mine had the movement per click info! it has all sorts of stuff stamped in various places but nothing indicating that info! I did check movement on a target & its definitely 1/2" per click @ 100yds. Maybe that's the difference between a "Bisley" & a "No4"? I'll ask my Aussie buddies & see if they know. It does sound odd to have such a coarse adjustment on a sight using a vernier scale though! Comparing the thread pitch between your sight & mine it does seem to have a considerably coarser thread. It's calibrated to 1300yds BTW. If you need the slotted washer let me know, I probably have a spare floating about somewhere. Before I found the suitable spring I just used a couple of flat, hard "nylon" washers I found in Home Despot, they were a perfect fit & provided just the right tension to feel the clicks without making the lever way too stiff. I'll have to go look, but I think I still have the rest of the packet of them. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 10:49am
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This is a reply for a query I sent them some time back you might find it informative. "You can check if it is 1/2 MOA or 1/3 MOA clicks without the need to fire a shot. Central No. 4 Sight Patent 139,047 of 13 March 1948. Production dates from after 1948 (as the 1948 patent is marked on it and patents took up to a year to be reviewed and fully approved - the date is the application date). Very early production of the No.4 will have a 1/4" thread on the elevation screw, yours is later and will have the smaller 3/16" elevating screw thread. It was probably made in 1960. The No.4 sight had been made and used from as early 1947 but did not receive complete approval from the Australian NRA until 1960.
This was probably the most popular sight ever made in Australia, being is full production for more than 40 years. There would have been tens of thousands of this model made. The No.4 Central was the last model they put into production, and it survived until the changeover from .303 to 7.62 mm in 1969.
This sight is still widely used for 7.62 mm rifles to this day, but will of course have a 7.62 elevation scale fitted.
You have the correct plate and sight for your No.1 Mk III rifle. It should have 1/2 minute graduations. You can check by aligning the two zero marks and counting the number of clicks from there to 20. If 40 clicks it is a half minute sight, if 60 clicks it may be the later 7.62 mm 1/3 minute sight. Only rarely will it be 80 clicks, as this was the 1/4 minute sight usually used by .22 target rifle shooters.
Half minute clicks give 1/2" adjustment per 100 yards. At 200 yards each click is 1", at 300 1 1/2", at 400 it gives 2". Alternately in metres each click is about 15 mm per 100 metres (30 at 200, 45 at 300 etc.) The wind-arm adjustment will work the same and have the same adjustment, but you need a wind chart for the cartridge used, and expressed in minutes. +++++
The Central also came as a "metric" range version with 1/3 minute clicks. Three clicks at 100 metres gave a minute of angle. Therefore for windage if 1/3 minute clicks: 3 clicks give 1 inch at 100 yards 3 clicks give 3 inch at 300 yards (1 click per inch) 3 clicks give 5 inch at 500 yards 3 clicks give 6 inch at 600 yards (1 click per 2 inch) 3 clicks give 7 inch at 700 yards 3 clicks give 8 inch at 800 yards 3 clicks give 9 inch at 900 yards (1 click per 3 inch) 3 clicks give 10 inch at 1000 yards" The sights originally came in a "tin can" a bit like an "Altiods tin" & were wrapped in a vapor rust reducing paper which was a combination advert for Central products & the (very minimal) instructions! Here's a copy of that paper.
For the 6 aperture peep check out this guy on E-Bay, I've used him for several target irons searches & found him good & reasonably priced. https://www.ebay.com/usr/artiozen2015?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559" rel="nofollow - - artiozen2015 ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 11:26am
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Of course, the range scale is of little use unless you are shooting the same ammunition that the scale is made for. In that case, it should be fairly close, but don’t expect it to be right on. I don’t pay much attention to the range scale, but I do use the MOA scale by recording the elevation settings for each range (distance) I shoot at for each load I develop and for each rifle. That’s typically at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards. Also at 800, 900 and 1000 yds when I have access to the long ranges. |
Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 11:40am
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The very basic way to find out what a "click" is worth on any sight is simply to count the clicks for 5 MoA which is the distance between two of the engraved lines on the sight face, 10 clicks = 1/2 MoA 20 clicks = 1/4 MoA. I actually had to do this last Thursday at Bisley when offered an AJ Parker 4/47 for a No.4 7.62mm build that's being done for me. ------------- Mick |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 11:42am
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^^^ This ^^^ I bought a 4 pack of small, 3X5", spiral
bound notepads one for each rifle. They're small enough to fit in a
shirt pocket & I use them for notes. Couple of views of the sight & mount to better show some of the features we're discussing   ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 11:59am
Yes, that is exactly what I do. I have both 1/2 and 1/4 MOA click PH 5c rear sights. They can be identified by the adjustment knob shapes, rounded upper edge is the 1/2 minute knob, the square/cylindrical shape is the 1/4 minute knob. But if in doubt, count clicks to move the scale 5 MOA (major index mark). |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 12:28pm
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One thing I've discovered. Your "Bisley" is an earlier version, they were made for over 40 years & some changes happen during that long a run. If you look at the elevation screws you'll see yours is larger & coarser threaded, this may simply be why its 1" clicks, because the machinery to cut the threads that fine-pitched & slender didn't exist in the earlier days? I sent an inquiry to "The Antipodes"
 & am awaiting a reply which I'll post when it arrives.------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 19 2022 at 12:48pm
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No where on my sight does it indicate Australia, only Central Bisley Model. The patent dates on both the base and sight indicate 1935. On the left side of the windage scale is R.D. on the right side is a what I assume to be a serial#, 16425, so these are on the forward facing side of the scale(where it folds over), and where horizontal arm meets with the elevation scale is says 1" per 100yrds. The elevation scale goes to 1200 yrds and has 10 clicks per 5MoA, so 1/2 Moa? The safety I got sorted out, I found a notched safety washer amongst my box of MkIII goodies, and an appropriate sized compression spring in another box of odds and sods. All I really need is an extended rear trigger guard screw and a complete aperture. I`m going to contact Elwood Epps tomorrow and see if they can help, before going to flea bay(I hate dealing on there). No one locally can help or even offer any advice or leads, even my local smithy seemed dis interested. Two little things that`l prove next to impossible to find I`m sure. There is however a shop in Sudbury that might have what I`m after, I`ll be calling there shortly.
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Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 9:24am
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You could try "Richard Stork" at Devizes Gunsmiths in the UK. He often has a lot of Enfield target sights for sale. I bought some stuff from him. He's busy so takes time to reply, but I did get the parts after a couple of reminders! ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 9:43am
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The Central sight Co was an Australian maker of target sights, probably the most wanted sights in Aus. I'm not sure about the "Bisley" stamp, but am trying to find more info for you. Mine has a bunch of engraving on the front of the "L" I'll go & get it photographed later when I go upstairs where the rifle is.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 10:06am
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A.E. Clarke in the UK also made/copied the Central sight so there is a chance items found over here will probably fit. Still very occasionally seen on rifles at Bisley! ------------- Mick |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 11:48am
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Q. Does the rear battle sight need to be removed to use these sights? Looks as though they would interfere with the sight picture.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:20pm
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There's a few ways to deal with that, left "as issued" its a very messy sight picture. You can, in order of degree. 1: File or grind the rear face of the battle sight down & reblue. 2: Remove the rear sight blade, leaving the arm & so on fitted. The single screw is staked in so deal with that first so the screw slot doesn't get boogered. 3:
Get a slim style rear sight blade (there are variations, the slimmer
the better), then remove the original & store it for replacement
later if desired attach the slim inverted so the blade faces DOWN into
the wood. 4: Remove the sight arm & blade as a unit. 5: Remove the whole ding dang doodle thing. 6: As (5) but also replace the upper & lower hand-guards with a solid one piece unit, if you can find one. I went with option 3 as it was a good balance between work required, aesthetic appeal & functionality. Plus the blade & notch are still there just facing in not out. That means you could unscrew the Central & un-flip the open sight in just minutes if you had to for some reason.   ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:26pm
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A few more pic of the sight & mount showing things like patent dates & different angles. You can see the "extra" hole of the "Universal Mount plate" which attaches to the bolt hole for No4 & No5 safety springs.   Last but not least a bit more tech info from the maker of the Central.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:28pm
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On my .303 SMLE, I modified the rear sight by removing the shoulder on the underside of the sighting notch component. Then fitted it upside down. So if I need to revert to standard sights , I just flip it over and remove the target sights. So there's no interference with the sight picture when using the target sight. And no confusion by having 3 useable sights in competition; which is not allowed. With the .22 SMLE. The target sight is set higher for 50 metres, so the original sight on its lowest setting is not an issue. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:33pm
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Cool thanx. I think I`ll just remove the whole sight arm, that should clean up the sight picture nicely. Option 6 sound good to, would make the rifle look sexy. As mentioned by Zed, I fired off a note to Richard Stork, his site shows the 6 hole iris, I also asked if he might have the long TG screw. As far as that guy on ebay is concerned, he will and does ship to Canada, but, dosn`t seem to get that items not listed as such I can`t buy, ebay won`t allow it unless its marked in the auction, shipping to Canada I`ve been back and forth a few times with him now with no resaults, he has what I need, but no way to buy them!
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:33pm
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On the one with the BSA #9 I did that, & on the Lithy I flipped the slim blade. Both work, but I prefer the inverted slim blade. its just looks "nicer" to me. Both ladders have been raised to show the bottom of the blade better, to use I just set the elevation to "2" & the blade disappears from the sighting picture. Its all personal preference but if I was removing the whole thing or the entire ladder I'd feel the "big hole" in the forend would look "off" so I'd go the whole hog with the one piece hand-guard.   ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:46pm
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OK cool, I just won a Parker Hale Smle mounting kit on ebay.UK, includes the safety screw, spring, washer and the long TG screw, $37cnd. including shipping. Now to get an elusive 6 hole iris. Hopefully that https://www.ebay.ca/ulk/usr/artiozen2015?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m44.l1181&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=27bb3ef06cd44be78782bafca5c0cc26&bu=43039424709&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220920113015&segname=11051" rel="nofollow -
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:51pm
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Richard Storks price is better by almost half, plus what ever shipping would be. And then the long wait for mail from the UK usually a couple weeks. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 1:11pm
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GRREAT!  It sounds like its really coming together. A trick I discovered I'll share. When you fit the new peep sight don't immediately remove the battle sight, or blade. What you can do is set up the new sight to exactly frame the old sight & foresight. when all 3 are aligned messily, Zero the scales THEN remove the battle sight bits its now sighted to the same POA / POI!  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 2:14pm
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Here`s some pics of the sight I acquired,not as shiny as yours shamu, but in really good condition. As seen in one of the pictures, the patent date is 12-11-35, yet mention of Australia??       |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 3:11pm
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Does anyone know if the 1 pc upper wood for the No1 mk5 trials rifle would be the same overall size and length to fit a No1 MkIII? Prestigious has them, and that`s about it for 1 pc wood for an smle
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 20 2022 at 6:07pm
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I'm afraid I can't help you there. First reply from Oz. Your sight is almost certainly calibrated for 74Gr MkVII ball, unlike mine, but if you change anything you're going to the Minutes scale.anyway. That's a vernier scale, on the right of the elevator (I apologize for asking) can you read / use a Vernier? because that's what most users of these go to.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 21 2022 at 12:50am
Ya I`m good |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 24 2022 at 5:44pm
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so i`ve got all the parts required on order even a one piece upper hand guard, so hopefully it wont be too to long before the goodies start to arrive. I talked to Jesse at Prestigious and he said the No1mkV trials stock is dimentionaly equal to the NoI MkII`s. Should look pretty nice when completed. I`ll start a new thread when done with pictures and range reports.
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 25 2022 at 4:55pm
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that looks like a really nice rear sight - wish i could appreciate it more - i cant use irons anymore with my old eyes , but as an appreciator of finely machined items i can see the quality and what it might afford a good shooter , often i wish i had gotten into these things earlier in life so they might have benefitted me when my eyesight would have allowed me to make good use of them , gettin old aint gor sissys and as we age we appreciate more what we missed in life ,
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 25 2022 at 5:09pm
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"gettin old aint for sissys and as we age we appreciate more what we missed in life" I hear year on that, I don`t figure I`ve got long before I wont be able to see squat with irons, this I figure will be my last kick at the cat so to speak, so I plan to make the very best of it, and I love playing with and learning old technology.
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 25 2022 at 5:53pm
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i applaud your moving in that direction , i just wish i had aquired the appreciation sooner in life , i did get to do some things after i met the right people , i shot trap and my team one the leagues two summers , i shot three gun for a couple years till it was apparent i couldnt keep up with all the young ones , i had fun collecting all my guns - i still have them but dont get them out often enough , particularly the shotgun - its more home defence these days , i shot sporting clays with a bunch of friends and on a league , but since my friends have fallen away from it so have i , i would still go do that again just because i loved the idea of different targets after every move , its really a fun sport , now i shoot cowboy action but im seeing a decline in my ability , ill keep doing it because i love shooting the old guns and i like reloading my own ammo , i dont care anymore where i place - im in the largest age group in CAS but ive always shot age category and im not a gamer that would shoot an obscure category just to win , i know some that do , its never been my intent to be "the winner" at any cost , i want to enjoy what i do and those i do it with , ill keep doing it till i cant , all that said , and i didnt mean to bore anyone or sound like im whining , im not , i started late and im sorry i did but ive enjoyed what little ive had ,
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 25 2022 at 6:25pm
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You know, any is better than none, I started early in life, 8 yrs old on my first grouse hunt with my dad and great uncle, that`s a living memory that never dulls for me. On the 15t Oct, I`m doing a PRS weekend just for sh!ts and giggles, its been almost 3 yrs thanx to covid, and I`m going to take my 1951 mint Churchill No4, I recon I`ll be the only one shooting 303, should be a hoot, Got a huge Nikon Monarch target scope on it, and 3 yr old dope sheets, need to start loading and get a couple practice shoots in. I trap and skeet shoot to keep my upland game bird skills sharp, plus its a great way to burn through tons of ammo. I dont have buddies I shoot with really, just club acquaintances, I show up shoot, make excuses then go home. My wife used to shoot with me for years, then lost interest for what ever reason, life maybe, but I`ll never quit..... |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 26 2022 at 11:45am
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shiloh, when setting up your Central sight; I found a useful trick to ensure the sight is correctly mounted in the verticle plane. Set the original rear sight and the new sight to 200 yards. Check the all three sights (front, rear and dioptre) align. Then raise the rear to 800 or the equivalent of the maximum elevation of the dioptre. then check that the 3 sighting points are still aligned. To ensure that the dioptre has not moved left or right. You may need some very minor adjustment of the baseplate if the alignment is off. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: BobGee
Date Posted: March 09 2024 at 3:57am
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I know it’s been a while but is it possible, for a Central sight, to determine which sight you have by the number of clicks per whole rotation of the knobs? I know that is the case with some (Russian) pistols I have. I would imagine that that would have been a far simpler solution for the makers of the Central sights (replacing the knobs) than changing the screw and its thread with all the work that would require - and the spares they would have to carry. Also, what is it that fixes the threaded screws in the cross pieces/abutments, i.e. stops the knobs from lifting rather than pushing the wind arm or the iris holder? I cannot see any evidence of cross pins (which might introduce backlash). Bob
------------- Bob |