30-303 Sizing Die
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Reloading
Forum Name: Reloading .303 British
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12420
Printed Date: September 26 2023 at 10:05pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 30-303 Sizing Die
Posted By: lawndart
Subject: 30-303 Sizing Die
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 1:36pm
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Hey guys, I'll lead this off by saying that I'm allergic to .311" projectiles. I spoke to Manson Reamers, and they have a print for a 30-303 chamber reamer that looks good. I'd like to know how guys go about sizing their 30-303 cases. Manson said they do a custom reamer for the sizing die, but I'm hoping I could get away using something off the shelf. Has anyone had success with a standard .303 sizing die? I was thinking I might be able to replace the .308 expander ball with a .311 and be good. He said otherwise I might use a bushing die, but I was thinking I might even get away with a .308 Win die to size down the neck. I'm not sure if this would work though, as I think the .308's neck is thicker. Thanks, Lawndart
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Replies:
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 4:56pm
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Have you looked at/ can you get the Hornady bullets for the M-N rifles? They're 1/2 way between .30 & .303 in diameter? https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/303-cal-3105-174-gr-fmj-bt" rel="nofollow - https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/303-cal-3105-174-gr-fmj-bt #!/ ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: BJ72
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 5:37pm
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If you use a lee collet neck die, just swap the .311 mandrel out for a .308 mandrel. I've done the same to give more neck tension when loading Hornady 174g FMJ's which are only .3105" into 303 cases. Swapping the .311 expander ball for a .308 expanding ball in standard full length dies should achieve the desired outcome as well. ------------- My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else. |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 5:41pm
In response to your lead off, I just have to ask this question lawndart. Why even own an Enfield rifle to begin with then? Makes no sense to come to a forum dedicated to the rifle that shoots a .311" projectile and start a thread stating that you are allergic to same said projectile? Instead of attempting to convert a 303 to any other caliber, it would probably be in your best interest to buy an Enfield already chambered in the caliber you desire. Cheaper that way actually after all the money you would have to invest in parts to get everything correctly fitted. If it is a 7.62x51mm chambered Enfield you desire, look for the 2A, 2A1, DCRA conversion, L39A1, or L42A1. If you're lucky enough you might even find some chap in Australia wanting to let go of his Enfield chambered in 25-303... |
lawndart wrote:Posted By: BJ72
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 6:41pm
I can see the advantage of the increased range of projectiles that are available in .308, but as Goosic pointed out, the cost of converting/building the rifle these days kinda out ways the advantage. You’re also left with a rifle that’s not historically correct and which would be excluded from some competition shoots because it’s not in as issued condition. For any other use, hunting etc, there’s no reason not to do it other than the initial cost. As Goosic said, just go buy a rifle already chambered in what you want. It would be far less expensive. If you still want it to be a Lee Enfield, you’ll find conversions already done chambered in everything from the 22 Hornet upwards. It’s just a matter of looking around. Then there’s the original Lee Enfield’s like the Ishapore 2A/2A1 etc that were chambered in 7.62 NATO form the outset. These nothing wrong with a 303.25 either Goosic, very popular here in Aus, even now.  ------------- My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else. |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 7:09pm
| I have heard all good things about the 25-303. I had the thought to have a custom barrel made chambered in 6mm303... |
Posted By: BJ72
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 8:29pm
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I find it interesting how in Australia we refer to it as a 303.25 yet everyone in your part of the world Goosic refers to the chambering as a 25-303. My neighbour has a 303.243. Sounds just like what you’re talking about. Lawndart. If for some reason you ever decide to go down the path of a different 303 wildcat, Simplex in Australia still make dies for most of them, 303.22, 303.243, 6mm Musgrave, 303.25, 303.270, 303 Epps etc. There’s a lot to pick from. As for me, I’ve always stuck with the good old 303 British but I have to admit I’ve come very close to picking up a 303.25 a couple of times. The 303 wildcat cartridges were all very common in Australia after the Second World War. Sporting rifles were hard to come by so people used what they had, lots of Surplus SMLE’s. Local gunsmiths converted 1000’s of them. The 303.25 was by far the most common in Australia though. I guess it suited the average Australian hunters/farmers needs the best. Don’t let me put you off you’re plan to build a 30.303 though. I can see some merit in your quest as far as bullet selection goes. ------------- My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else. |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 8:47pm
| BJ72. Can you recommend or point me in the right direction to someone in your neck of the woods that sells or makes No4 contoured barrels chambered for the 303-243 |
Posted By: BJ72
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 9:15pm
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Allan Swan Gunsmith will make you a barrel in pretty much any length and contour you desire. I don’t see 303.243 on their reamer list but that doesn’t mean they can’t get hold of one. I think the biggest issue would probably be import/export issues and cost. Most people here that get into the 303 wildcats just purchase a complete second hand rifle from days gone past. They do come up in surprisingly good condition still sometimes. There’s no harm in asking though. See if this link works for their web page. https://www.allanswangunsmithing.com/home" rel="nofollow - https://www.allanswangunsmithing.com/home ------------- My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else. |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 15 2022 at 9:45pm
| Thank you. I just emailed him... |
Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 16 2022 at 6:59am
Lawndart
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 16 2022 at 7:00am
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 16 2022 at 7:36am
Simple, I like the unique action, love the sights, appreciate the aesthetics, and want a new project for a couple sporters that don't excite me. I'd like to turn them into rifles I love and shoot often. I'll never get rid of my original No.4 T over its .311 barrel, but I also don't intend to shoot it much, so it's not an issue. If I could find a great price on a DCRA conversion, L39, or L42, I'd jump all over it. But I don't think I'll find that at a reasonable price in today's market. I'm still looking for a DCRA or L39/L42 barrel, but they're not common. If I can find one, great. If not, I'm pushing Criterion to make me a No.4 barrel with a .308 bore that I can chamber myself. In the meantime, I'll use play around with the 2A1 barrel I have kicking around. Lawndart
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 16 2022 at 8:00am
Yeah, I don't disagree that this isn't the smartest decision financially. I mostly shoot my Swedish Mauser, Ljungman, 03A3, and one of my Garands at matches. I could definitely get away with a No.4 in 30-303 at my local matches. An L42 with the scope removed would work as well, though I'm not sure if I'm man enough to shoot it offhand with that heavy barrel. At any rate, I love wrenching on Garands, Mausers, etc, and have built proper Ljungmans on Hakim receivers. I really want to get to at least an amateur level of proficiency on a lathe, and see these projects as learning opportunities. Keep in mind I don't butcher historical rifles. I just want to take chopped-up sporters and make cool, unique rifles that I love taking to the range out of them. Lawndart
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 8:17am
BJ72: Allan is making a No4Mk1 contoured barrel chambered for .243W for me. Lead Time is 12 weeks. He said the only thing I will have to do is to cut the extractor slot. Shipping cost is a tad expensive but what the heII, I will have a No4Mk2 that shoots .243W ammunition...
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 9:09am
If you don't mind sharing, could you please let us know what the total cost is with shipping? After seeing how much lighter the 2A contour is, I'm thinking about going with a No.4 or target contour. Lawndart
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 9:24am
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lawndart. The total cost with shipping to the United States from QLD is $790.00 AUD or $531.43 USD to us here in the United States. The No4Mk1 profile is thicker in diameter than the .243W barrel on my Weatherby and my Weatherby is a Tack Driver so, in my minds eye, the No4Mk1 contoured barrel s already a Bull Barrel. The cool aspect of this is my handloads for my .243W have a CUP of 42,300 and scoot along @ 2845 fps. Extremely safe to use in an Enfield and should do just as well as accuracy is concerned alongside my Weatherby...
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 9:42am
Thanks! Just for reference, Shaw is quoting $195, but they're known to need lapping, and external contour would be an approximation at best. I'll have to turn a journal for the front sight, and may have to turn it down where the forestock contacts it if I don't go the L42 route. Yeah, when I did my 6.5x55 Garand barrel, it turned out to be significantly stiffer because of the extra wall thickness despite having the same external contour. I love the 6mm calibers. My PRS gun is a 6 Creedmoor RPR. I fire a fairly mild load to maximize barrel life, and get 3000 fps from a 105gr HPBT with a G1 BC of .530. I love having that kind of performance with totally negligible recoil! Lawndart
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 10:15am
| My personal load for the .243W is 37.5grns of VVN540 and using the 90grn Lapua 6.18mm OTR Scenar-L that has a 543 BC. Averaged FPS is 3212 and the PSI using the Piezo Scale is only 48,468 which is a very safe and workable pressure for the No4Mk1... |
Posted By: BJ72
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 1:23pm
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Let us know how these builds turn out. I’m interested to see how they both go. Lawndart. I recall reading somewhere that one of the Ruger no1’s chambered in 303 British had a 308 bore. I can’t recall where I read it now, but I believe it was on another forum somewhere. It would be interesting to see if anyone else has ever slugged the bore of a Ruger no1 303. I believe they did the same with early Ruger Mini 30’s and used a 308 barrel despite the 7.62 x 39 using a 310-311 bullet. If you happened to have a Ruger no1 in 303 and it had a tight 308 bore, it would certainly open up your bullet options. Goosic, Sako actually did a small run of Enfield conversions at one point. I’ve seen a couple come up for sale here in Australia recently. Both were no4’s chambered in 243 Win. Apparently they are quite rare so the asking price was rather high. Sako collectors seem willing to pay the high price due to the small numbers built. They had an internal single stack mag fitted inside the original no4 magazine. It would be interesting to see how they’ve faired if fed a stead diet of factory 243 Win loads over the years. ------------- My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else. |
Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 1:34pm
There is quite a story to these SAKO Enfields they were built up on brand new Enfields that SAKO purchased and they developed their own serial number system prefixed "SE" (SAKO ENFIELD) And all for $37.00 (It was 1959)         |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:06pm
This is where having the Enfield CR141A magazine or the 2A1 Ishapore magazine comes in handy. My CR141A magazine topped off with .243W ammunition utilizing necked down Norma .308W cases...
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:15pm
I've used these in the past, but according to my notes G1 BC is only .434. Great results though. https://www.lapua.com/product/6-mm-cal-scenar-l-bullet-gb543-58-g-90-gr-otm/" rel="nofollow - https://www.lapua.com/product/6-mm-cal-scenar-l-bullet-gb543-58-g-90-gr-otm/
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:22pm
Yes, I typed in the wrong numbers and not realizing until later. Regardless, and all I know with any amount of certainties is that I can put 20 rounds inside of a 1.25" circle @ 200 yards using those projectiles...
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:35pm
I'll definitely post up my results! Yes, I recall that post as well. It was by a retired Ruger engineer. The company was not willing to stock .311" bore blanks for a small run of No.1s in .303 Brit. He decided to test the increase in pressure that would result from firing a .311" bullet in the .308" bore to ensure it would be safe if a customer fired a .303 Brit cartridge loaded with a proper .311" bullet in the undersized .308" bore. If I remember correctly, he found that pressures increased by about 3.5 kpsi, which was determined to be well within safety limits and was deemed acceptable. The production run went forward with .308" bores. You're correct that Mini 30s have .308 barrels as well. However, the max pressure of the 7.63x39 is quite low at about 45kpsi. They wanted to test the .303 Brit to make sure that approach would still be safe in a higher-pressure rifle caliber. Lawndart PS. That's a really cool story on the Sakos. I hope that's a separate post somewhere on the forum!
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Posted By: lawndart
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:35pm
Great results! Sub-MOA accounting for hole diameter.
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Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 2:51pm
I don't remember previously posting the pictures and advert here. But my memory is not what is was. Note the location of the rear sight !  |
Posted By: TwoFourThree
Date Posted: December 19 2022 at 9:06pm
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There were only 678 of the Sako Enfields made. The original rifles were sent to Sako by the Australian importer of Sako rifles to be converted. Some were in .308 as well. Had a chance to buy one for under $400 but passed on it as I had a couple of .243's already.  |