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Them Nasty WW2 Winchester rounds showed up!!

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Category: Reloading
Forum Name: Reloading .303 British
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12441
Printed Date: February 21 2024 at 12:44pm
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Topic: Them Nasty WW2 Winchester rounds showed up!!
Posted By: Goosic
Subject: Them Nasty WW2 Winchester rounds showed up!!
Date Posted: December 23 2022 at 3:13pm
Apparently, the picture I originally looked at as a description of the ammunition I was purchasing said Lot 42 on the box and a couple of you on here said Yucky or something similar. 
Anywho, The first thing I noticed is that the boxes I have are dated,  27 July 1941 Lot 316. The next item I attended to was to pull a bullet and check the powder situation. The powder looks brand new and scaled out at exactly 45.0grns. The cases are at 2.220" and the rim thickness is .0610" as well. The OAL is 3.025" on every round. The only data I can find that uses 45.0grns is from an old Winchester reloading book and that is W760 on top of a 180grn SP. I am still going to pull all of the bullets, deprime the cases, do all the case prep, clean the cases, reprise the cases with Federal 210M primers, load each case with 39.0grns of Norma 202 powder and reseat each bullet to an original OAL of 3.025"...



Replies:
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 23 2022 at 7:11pm
Whats the bullet weight?
Not what's stamped on the box?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 23 2022 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Whats the bullet weight?
Not what's stamped on the box?
They are supposed to be 174grn bullets but, out of the 40 I have pulled and weighed, only one weighed exactly 174grn. Fifteen of them weighed between 174.8 and 175.5. Twenty of them weighed between 173.4 and 172.2. Three weigh 173.9 and one weighs 168.0 exactly. Alot of inconsistencies right there. I reloaded the cases with PPU 174grn FMJBT 's instead...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 3:23am
That powder looks good.  Did you try snapping a primer in an unloaded case?  Might still be good, although likely chlorate and corrosive.  

How consistent was the powder charge weight?  Does look like a ball powder, could be BL-C.

If the ammo has been stored out of the summer heat, it will still be good.  


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 3:50am
BL-C by the way is Hodgdons name for WWII surplus WC 846 that was used in .303 ammunition. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 4:11am
The powder charge was consistent with every weight being 45.0grns. The primers still work too. 
I am not taking any chance here and will dump all the original powder and primers in exchange for 39.0grns of Norma 202 powder and Federal 210M primers. The other item of contention are the flat-based FMJ's. I have pulled 60 of them so far and only 2 of them weigh 174.0grns. The weight ranges between 168grn to 175.5grns so,, I will not be using those as well.  I will be using PPU 174grn FMJBT projectiles however.  I had every intention to shoot the original bullets but after noticing the extreme differences in weight, I chose the more reliable and consistent weight provided by the PPU projectiles.  Basically,  I paid a ridiculously high price for 81 year old unfired Winchester brass.

NOTICE!! If anyone wants the 80 Flatbased FMJ's to use for plinking or whatnot PM me. No price involved, I am just giving them away...


Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 4:58am
Ridiculously high-priced Winchester brass indeed. Too bad the bullets were that far apart in weight. They will make good plinking/testing rounds though.



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14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 5:02am
Given that the powder is still good, I would keep any boxes you have not yet opened, for collector value.  

Agree, not really worth the risk of shooting, especially in your “new” Resistance rifle.  But, would be an interesting experiment to see how consistent the muzzle velocities are and what the accuracy is like.  I’d guess hat the bullets are not goin to shoot that well, perhaps 3 to 4 MOA. 

As a reference, my 1943 and 1944 Canadian .303 Mk 7z still shoots 100% reliable and right on spec muzzle velocity.  Accuracy is 2 to 3 MOA.  I also have some 1951 Mk 7z that shoots even better, under 1.5 MOA, and was selected for use in DCRA Matches thru the 1960’s.  






Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 8:14am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Given that the powder is still good, I would keep any boxes you have not yet opened, for collector value.  

Agree, not really worth the risk of shooting, especially in your “new” Resistance rifle.  But, would be an interesting experiment to see how consistent the muzzle velocities are and what the accuracy is like.  I’d guess hat the bullets are not goin to shoot that well, perhaps 3 to 4 MOA. 

As a reference, my 1943 and 1944 Canadian .303 Mk 7z still shoots 100% reliable and right on spec muzzle velocity.  Accuracy is 2 to 3 MOA.  I also have some 1951 Mk 7z that shoots even better, under 1.5 MOA, and was selected for use in DCRA Matches thru the 1960’s.  




I have one box that will remain sealed so I will never be able to determine consistent velocities or accuracy but, knowing that there is an averaged difference of a 7.4grn spread within each 20 round box, it is suffice to say that accuracy from these rounds would be abysmal. The current reloads have known velocities and accuracy from past experience. 
39.0grns of Norma 202
210M primers 
.311 FMJBT 
OAL 3.025"
Averaged chronographed FPS 8ft from muzzle= 2612
Averaged horizontal and vertical spread of a ten shot group at 100 yards= 1.31"
At that was with a scoped rifle with a used barrel and using a sandbag for support. 
It stands to reason these rounds will be as accurate or better when fired through a rifle with a "new" barrel...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 8:23am
Yes, I’ll bet that rifle will shoot great!  Does it still have any pressure from the forend on the barrel at the muzzle?  

2610 fps, is that a 150 gr. Bullet?




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 8:59am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Yes, I’ll bet that rifle will shoot great!  Does it still have any pressure from the forend on the barrel at the muzzle?  

2610 fps, is that a 150 gr. Bullet?


Exactly 3lbs of pressure. 
The muzzle velocities are with a 174grn FMJBT 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 24 2022 at 3:54pm
PM sent on the FMJ's!



-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Given that the powder is still good, I would keep any boxes you have not yet opened, for collector value.  

Agree, not really worth the risk of shooting, especially in your “new” Resistance rifle.  But, would be an interesting experiment to see how consistent the muzzle velocities are and what the accuracy is like.  I’d guess hat the bullets are not goin to shoot that well, perhaps 3 to 4 MOA. 

As a reference, my 1943 and 1944 Canadian .303 Mk 7z still shoots 100% reliable and right on spec muzzle velocity.  Accuracy is 2 to 3 MOA.  I also have some 1951 Mk 7z that shoots even better, under 1.5 MOA, and was selected for use in DCRA Matches thru the 1960’s.  




I have one box that will remain sealed so I will never be able to determine consistent velocities or accuracy but, knowing that there is an averaged difference of a 7.4grn spread within each 20 round box, it is suffice to say that accuracy from these rounds would be abysmal. The current reloads have known velocities and accuracy from past experience. 
39.0grns of Norma 202
210M primers 
.311 FMJBT 
OAL 3.025"
Averaged chronographed FPS 8ft from muzzle= 2612
Averaged horizontal and vertical spread of a ten shot group at 100 yards= 1.31"
At that was with a scoped rifle with a used barrel and using a sandbag for support. 
It stands to reason these rounds will be as accurate or better when fired through a rifle with a "new" barrel...

Curious if the 2612 fps is a typo, since it’s a 174 gr bullet and 39.0 gr N202? 








Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 1:40pm
Not a typo britrifles. 
My slowest chronographed fps for that load was 2597 and the fastest was 2618 and after a ten shot group, the averaged fps calculated was 2612...


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 1:46pm
That's "a mighty spicy meatball" from a .303 Lee Enfield!
Censored
With 174/180 g\r bullets Norma gives range of 39 Gr of 202 for 2454 FPS ~ 41.0 for 2608 FPS!




-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

That's "a mighty spicy meatball" from a .303 Lee Enfield!
Censored
With 174/180 g\r bullets Norma gives range of 39 Gr of 202 for 2454 FPS ~ 41.0 for 2608 FPS!
Shamu.  I have used 39.0grns of IMR4064 and can only achieve a best possible FPS of 2389 and I have used 39.0grns of IMR3031 and achieved a FPS of 2420. I have been using 42.5grns of VihtaVuori N540 and have averaged a FPS of 2582. It is only with the Norma 202 that I have been getting faster than advertised FPS numbers. Will not matter anyways soon enough. I only have 2lbs of the stuff left and after that I go back to using the IMR4895 first and then the IMR4064 next, and saving the IMR3031 for my last resort...
 



Posted By: bubba ho tep
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 3:18pm
I shot a gob of the WW2 win loaded 303 and never had a problem with it. Good brass...got alot of reloads out of that brass. Pretty sure centerfire systems out of KY still has a bunch of this 303 for sale still. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 3:28pm
After dumping all the contents of the powder based on what others have said about it. I now regret that decision.  It looked as fresh as the new stuff you find now.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 26 2022 at 4:26pm
It all depends on how it was stored.  It’s high temperatures that cause powder to deteriorate and release nitric acids. That powder was sold as surplus by Hodgdon for many years as BLC.  Highly coveted powder even today.  Based on the photo you posted Gossic, that powder looked fine.  The only downside was the corrosive primers, but proper (and immediate) cleaning deals with that.  




Posted By: olskool
Date Posted: March 18 2023 at 2:06pm
why in the world would you trash good power and primers and do all that work for nothing? makes no sense at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 18 2023 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by olskool olskool wrote:

why in the world would you trash good power and primers and do all that work for nothing? makes no sense at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
Let me ask you a question. If you were given a Power Glide out of a 1962 Chevy II with the promise that it is all original and has never been touched. Are you going to leave it alone or are you going to rebuild it and add a new filter and fluid to it before you use it?
 Because You do not know the condition internally of 80 year old ammunition and I did not want to take the chance of having something go wrong olskool. And all that work was for something as well. Fresh powder, fresh primers, and match grade bullets that offer excellent accuracy...


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 18 2023 at 4:21pm
It's like building a resto-mod. You get the best of both worlds. Refurbishing something that a lot of people would have just sent to the wrecker and replacing the old parts of unknown history with new modern components. Guarantee those new pills will shoot better than the originals, and you won't have to wince every time you pull the trigger waiting for something bad to happen!



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