Enfield muzzleloader rifle identification
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12600
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 3:31pm
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Topic: Enfield muzzleloader rifle identification
Posted By: Piston
Subject: Enfield muzzleloader rifle identification
Date Posted: March 25 2023 at 1:45pm
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he!!o everyone, New guy here just getting into Enfields and I could use some help identifying one if anyone would be so kind. It is stamped 1863 Enfield and has the crown and VR markings. It is a two band percussion cap .577 carbine with a bayonet lug. I was told that it is an artillery carbine but am not sure as I think those are pretty rare. The barrel is 24" long. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks in advance!  |
Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 25 2023 at 4:59pm
| it is a pattern 1853 , the short version , there was a longer one as well , these were used extensivly in the US civl war , mostly by the south as they were trading with england at that time , |
Posted By: Piston
Date Posted: March 25 2023 at 6:25pm
| Thanks for the response. So would it be considered an artillery carbine, musketoon, or just a carbine? |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 25 2023 at 7:43pm
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i believe they refered to them as a three band - for the long rifle , and a two band for the short version , there are a couple others here that might add better knowledge than my old minds recollections , not sure they used the word "carbine" exactly but i do think it was issued to artillery crews , i had one once in my collection but it was the three band and i never dug very deep in the research as my interest was more in cartridge rifles , i also had a snyder conversion of one of these - simioar to the US trapdoors these were conversions of the muscates to cartridge loading , i rather like whar i see in your photos but i cant give you much more , terry lee might add to the thread when he drops in , this site for the most part are interested in the later rifles , these might get addressed better in the british militaria forum , they concentrate a good deal in the older weapons and have a very knowledgeable group ,
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Posted By: Piston
Date Posted: March 25 2023 at 8:15pm
| Thanks for your info! I will see if anyone else chimes in and also check into the British avenue. Thanks again! |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 5:01am
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You will likely get more information over on the British Militaria Forum, they have a sub-Forum covering the P53 muzzle loader. This forum covers the Lee Enfield, a much later bolt action rifle.
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 6:02am
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I'v never heard them referred to as a "carbine". (Doesn't mean they weren't - just I don't seem to get out much). Take a good close look at the bayo lug. I've seen 2 banders that had bayo lugs added after they were shortened. Doesn't mean this one did - just askin. ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 6:36am
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Some info here on the 1856 short rifled musket, Calvary and Artillery Carbine. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/this-old-gun-pattern-1856-enfield-cavalry-carbine/" rel="nofollow - https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/this-old-gun-pattern-1856-enfield-cavalry-carbine/ |
Posted By: Piston
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 8:41am
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Thanks!! I will check in at the forum you mentioned. I do have a couple of full wood lee enfields that I may need some guidance on as well but will start another post about those. Thanks again!!
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Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 9:46am
 Snap! Same as mine. A Pattern 1856 Short Rifle as issued to the British Rifle Regiments and Sergeants of the Line
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Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 9:51am
| That is a cool rifle. Did they shoot a patched ball or a Minie ball? |
Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 10:19am
 A minieball in a tear-open cartridge. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 10:46am
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"Short rifle"! This was back before they made "a one size fits all rifle" for mounted & infantry troops. That's part of the apparently odd nomenclature of the later SMLE. Infantry got "Long Rifles", cavalry got "Short Rifles" & the SMELLIE was a universal compromise. IIRC carbines were even shorter at 20" or so?
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 12:14pm
| How heavy was the projectile and how much BP did they use? I ask because I'm curious to compare it to the combo I use in my Renegade. Thanks! |
Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 3:45pm
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The service bullet and powder charge weighed 530 and 68 grains respectively. |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 5:43pm
| The later Snider conversion for breach loading metallic cartridges used 70 grains of powder (similar to Fg) under a 480 grain hollow based expanding Pritchett type bullet similar to a Mini ball. |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 7:57pm
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see i told you we had more to offer than my meager bit of knowledge , i was always a cartridge rifle collector but got enamored with owning these muscates after acquiring a kentucky flintlock - the connection of the P1853 to our civil war made me want to go that way rather than the US service rifles ....i had sold all my US service rifles by then , anyway - enjoy that one
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Posted By: Piston
Date Posted: March 26 2023 at 8:21pm
| Oh wow! that is great! Do you know if they were referred to as an artillery carbine by chance? Are they pretty scarce or commonly found? |
Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 27 2023 at 12:47am
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The Enfield M/L rifles previously referred to are not carbines. They are Short Rifles as issued to the Rifle Regiments and sergeants. I attach photos of the Pat. 1853 and Pat. 1861 Artillery Carbines. One could possibly say that the Pat. 1856 Short Rifles are the more common of the uncommon!   |
Posted By: Piston
Date Posted: March 27 2023 at 4:54pm
| Thanks for posting that! The bottom definitely resembles mine. |
Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 28 2023 at 2:41am
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The Pat.1856 Short Rifle compared to the Pat.1861 Artillery carbine. The length of the Rifle is 123 cms. and the Carbine 101 cms.  |