My Entrenching/Mine Probing Tool
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Accessories
Forum Description: Slings, Bandoleers and any other Accessories for the Enfields
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12986
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 7:10pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: My Entrenching/Mine Probing Tool
Posted By: Goosic
Subject: My Entrenching/Mine Probing Tool
Date Posted: November 28 2023 at 7:52pm
Not alot of information could be found on the maker but, it is enough for a small history lesson.  Edward Elwell Ltd was a company in Wednesbury (now in the county of West Midlands), England, that manufactured edge tools at Wednesbury Forge. The company was founded in 1817, and the forge closed in 2005. Edward Elwell (1783–1869),son of an ironfounder in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walsall" rel="nofollow - Walsall , leased a forge in 1817 in Wood Green, Wednesbury, powered by water from the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Tame,_West_Midlands" rel="nofollow - River Tame . There had been a water-powered forge in Wednesbury since at least 1597, when William Whorwood leased a forge owned by William Comberford. It may have been the same site as the forge at Wood Green, which by 1785 was one of four forges in the town.Edward Elwell became known as a maker of quality edge tools, such as axes, hoes, shovels and spades. The machinery was powered by water and by steam engines. By 1851 Edward Elwell's son Edward (1814–1857) had taken over management of the company, but he resumed control on his son's death; his grandson Alfred took over when he died in 1869. The company exported to many countries, including America, where it sold large quantities of edge tools during the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War" rel="nofollow - American Civil War . The company was interested in the welfare of its workforce, converting former workshops into housing, and developing sports facilities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pauls_Church,_Wood_Green" rel="nofollow - St Paul's Church, Wood Green , completed in 1874, was built by the Elwell family. After Alfred Elwell's death in 1902 the business became a https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_limited_company" rel="nofollow - private limited company . The water wheels were replaced in 1904 by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_turbine" rel="nofollow - water turbines . In 1967, the company became one of the amalgamated firms of a newly formed company Spearwell Tools Ltd, and this was later taken over by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_%26_Jackson" rel="nofollow - Spear & Jackson . Wednesbury Forge closed in 2005, and the buildings were demolished in 2007..
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Replies:
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 10:55am
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Nice! Originally a "Sirhind tool" which the British re-labelled as an INtrenching (not ENtrenching) implement! It was eventually reclassified as an "entrenching tool" http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_sirhind_tool.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_sirhind_tool.html
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 11:55am
Like the American intrenching tool a bad as# fight tool!
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 2:39pm
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Oh especially with "The Pointy bit" on the other end! A Klingon would love it!
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 4:13pm
I hear even Hoodie owns one.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 4:23pm
I have no idea how to say "Gascon Batlith" in Canadian French! 
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 29 2023 at 9:41pm
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im pleased to say mine now resides with a local here , these are an interesting bit and something all collators should have , ive not looked lately but they were not easy to find when i sought out the one i had , i wonder if they ended up in english gardening tools ?
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 12:02am
A square 10 wrote:
im pleased to say mine now resides with a local here , these are an interesting bit and something all collators should have , ive not looked lately but they were not easy to find when i sought out the one i had , i wonder if they ended up in english gardening tools ? |
Alot of the ones I have been seeing for sale or up for auction, are missing the bayonet lugs and the carrier the handle and helve are secured into...
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 3:49am
Goosic wrote:
A square 10 wrote:
im pleased to say mine now resides with a local here , these are an interesting bit and something all collators should have , ive not looked lately but they were not easy to find when i sought out the one i had , i wonder if they ended up in english gardening tools ? |
Alot of the ones I have been seeing for sale or up for auction, are missing the bayonet lugs and the carrier the handle and helve are secured into... |
They deleted the bayonet lug on the Mark 2 helve later in the war.
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 3:51am
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Non-Military types would call the (in)entrenching tool a pick-mattock.
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 4:41am
paddyofurniture wrote:
I hear even Hoodie owns one. |
Indeed I do! Just like the one shown. I keep it handy in case the Liberals start planting landmines to blame on domestic terrorists.
Now if I could find the proper sling I posted for last week, I'd be a happy camper!
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 7:56am
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I have a repo sling on one of my SKS I might be will to trade out.
Let me check.
What do you have to trade?
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 9:11am
The bayo lugs aren't "missing" as in removed. There were 2 versions one with & one without.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 9:19am
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A neutered tool in the Army?
Can not play or have pointed things now can we!
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 9:26am
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The early ones didn't have it as they were issued in the day of the No1 MkIII, with its giant nosecap. It was later when the No4 with it different front end came out they added the ability to probe with an attached bayonet.
"The Intrenching, pattern 1908 - Helve is a sturdy
piece of ash or hickory, about 16 1/2-inches long, with a steel ferrule
at one end. It is inserted through the eye of the Tool head. The Helve was unchanged throughout its original service life. Late in WWII, however, after the Implement, entrenching, pattern 1908 had been brought back into service, a Mk. II variant of the Helve would be introduced by ACI 976 dated June 1944. This version had an adapter fitting on the end, so that a "spike" Bayonet from the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Rifle
could be fitted to it, for use as a mine probe. This is a Mk. I
example. The maker mark is unreadable, but it is dated 1911. From the
Karkee Web Collection."
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 11:12am
paddyofurniture wrote:
I have a repo sling on one of my SKS I might be will to trade out.
Let me check.
What do you have to trade? |
I have 2 SKS rifles. I don't need / want sling for them..I want proper issue sling for my 1916 BSA.
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 30 2023 at 11:25am
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I am going to a show in December.
Do you want me to look around?
Might be a WWII sling as WWI are hard to come by.
Let me know.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 4:17am
Thanx Paddy - but I'd sooner wait fer the correct sling. Just wouldn't do the Vimy Vet any justice if I were to put the incorrect dress on her.
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 4:37am
hoadie wrote:
Thanx Paddy - but I'd sooner wait fer the correct sling. Just wouldn't do the Vimy Vet any justice if I were to put the incorrect dress on her.  |
hoadie: What is the correct sling for you. I have been going through photos of that day and have noticed that almost every Enfield rifle has a canvas web sling. I did find three that had the leather sling with leather tie straps. Which do you prefer?
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 11:19am
I'm not 100 % sure. The rifle wAS @ Vimy Ridge. It was issued when the soldier got to Blighty. They turned in their ROSS rifles & were issued proper Enfields(as well as proper English issue web gear.) So- which one? I dunno. What were the Brits issuing in 1916?
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 11:56am
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Probably either, both seem to have overlapped considerably.
The leather with loop Pat '14: "This Sling is a leather strap, 43 1/2-inches long by 1
1/4-inches wide. It has a fixed loop on one end, as well as a free
running loop. To fit this sling to a rifle, the free end is passed
though the front sling swivel from the rear, then looped around it and
passed through, first, the running loop and then the fixed one. The free
end is then doubled back through the rifle's rear sling swivel and tied
with a leather thong. The Sling is an shorter, narrower version of the Sling, rifle, brown, infantry, introduced under L. of C. 4855, 29th August 1885, as part of the Valise Equipment, Pattern 1882. The Sling, rifle, pattern 1914, was used long after Infantry Equipment, Pattern 1914 was declared obsolete, and was still being manufactured in Australia as late as WWII."
& the Pat 37 Web: "1937 Pattern Web Equipment (also known as '37 Webbing') was an item of military load-carrying equipment. It replaced the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Pattern_Webbing" rel="nofollow - 1908 Pattern and 1925 Pattern—on which it was based—and was standard issue for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom" rel="nofollow - British and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations" rel="nofollow - Commonwealth troops from its introduction in 1937, throughout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II" rel="nofollow - World War II , and in the post-war period until it was superseded by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/58_pattern_webbing" rel="nofollow - 1958 Pattern Web Equipment ."
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 12:02pm
Everything i have found indicates the use of P37 webbing. Found this reproduction sling on eBay: 
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 1:40pm
Well, looks like I'll be going with a web sling the. The guy that carried the rifle @ the ridge is long past & I never had the opportunity to meet him.(Methinks his wounds had something to do with his early passing) His son was in WWII (Cdn armour) & he passed a while back as well.
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 2:01pm
You have to be careful buying some of those repos, the metal work(not the rings) are as thin as foil, totally rubbish.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 2:40pm
Oddly the best bet of getting a guaranteed original is to go for the war expedient one with the steel hardware, rather than the brass. No one I know of it reproing them!
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 4:57pm
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this would be the correct .......,.
The leather with loop Pat '14: "This Sling is a leather strap, 43 1/2-inches long by 1 1/4-inches wide. It has a fixed loop on one end, as well as a free running loop. To fit this sling to a rifle, the free end is passed though the front sling swivel from the rear, then looped around it and passed through, first, the running loop and then the fixed one. The free end is then doubled back through the rifle's rear sling swivel and tied with a leather thong. The Sling is an shorter, narrower version of the Sling, rifle, brown, infantry, introduced under L. of C. 4855, 29th August 1885, as part of the Valise Equipment, Pattern 1882. The Sling, rifle, pattern 1914, was used long after Infantry Equipment, Pattern 1914 was declared obsolete, and was still being manufactured in Australia as late as WWII."
.........if this was issued in 1916 and you want correct for that era ,
it may well have served in WWII , my 1915 BSA did , in that case and if thats what you want then ....the P37 was not used until after 1937 acceptance and is correct for anythiung issued in WW!!
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 3:04am
A square 10: I cant read your post..too dark for my eyes
------------- Loose wimmen tightened here
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 8:51am
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ya black font don`t work so well on this background. neither do other colors. Ie this red looks blurry to me. Hoadie, just high light it, makes it readable.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 9:38am
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Its a copy/paste from my earlier post: "The leather with loop Pat '14:"
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 11:02am
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If it matters, I am watching 1917 right now on Showtime. Every rifle so far, is shown wearing a canvas web sling...
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 3:35pm
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I guess it depends on your focus. The Pat'14 was "correct" but really disliked by the troops, so they'd dump them for a Pat '37 in a heartbeat! Google for "P14 sling" & click "images" & it'll have a couple of rounds wedged into the loop! No-one really knows why, but things like a "Last Ditch Suicide Round" have been suggested, but why 2 of them? Another theory is they wedged the strap in place so it would stop slipping when wet & muddy.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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