Berdan to Boxer
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Category: Reloading
Forum Name: Reloading .303 British
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Topic: Berdan to Boxer
Posted By: britrifles
Subject: Berdan to Boxer
Date Posted: December 29 2023 at 1:57pm
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Anyone tried this tool?
https://22lrreloader.com/products/berdan-military-case-loader-foreign-domestic" rel="nofollow - https://22lrreloader.com/products/berdan-military-case-loader-foreign-domestic
I’ve got a lot of spent Berdan primed .303 brass. Saving it for a day that I found a way to easily convert to Berdan primers or an easy way to decap to seat a new Berdan primer.
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Replies:
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: December 29 2023 at 2:10pm
Looks interesting.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: December 30 2023 at 4:07am
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Years ago I had a load of .762 Russia Berdan primed cases , a rifle but no loaded ammo
I tried the following. With a 1/8th drill I drilled the anvil out and was surprised to find that the entire primer came out with the drill, I thought it couldn't be that couldn't but it was it was and a standard primer fitted perfectly.
I used that combination for some years until UK laws stopped us from using Semi Auto full bore rifles.
Try it. What have you got to loose.? Try it on a low load first to be sure,
------------- Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 30 2023 at 7:38am
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Just ordered the kit along with the large Berdan bushings. I have a lot of .303 cases that have the Large Berdan primers. Also have some PMP with smaller Berdan primer that won’t require the bushing.
Once I get some cases done, I’ll post an update.
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: December 30 2023 at 10:39am
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Works for me.
Look forward to the information.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 30 2023 at 2:32pm
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Sweet. Maybe there is a use for all that "non reloadable brass Ive been keeping for things like action proving dummies & master cases! 
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: December 31 2023 at 3:49pm
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Works great. I've been converting 7.65X53 Arg to boxer for some time. The kit won't work with the .303 British until you first take an end mill and grind down the anvil INSIDE the case. (Yes, inside the case.) Without doing that first the long drill bit that comes with the set will be deflected to the side and simply drill another hole similar to the other two.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 31 2023 at 4:48pm
Ahh good catch.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 01 2024 at 4:14am
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Thanks for that tip Sapper. Do you do that by hand (5/16 inch dia end mill in a hand drill) holding the case in the full length die with the decapping rod removed? Maybe center punching the anvil thru the sleeve that screws into the die to locate the punch?
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 15 2024 at 12:47pm
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Finally, the kit and bushings are on the way, I was getting worried.
Excited to see how this works. I have lots of Berdan primed empty cases, I’m going start with 50 cases of 1951 Mk 7 Dominion match grade brass as a test. It’s the most consistent brass in terms of weight and dimensions I’ve come across.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 20 2024 at 1:03pm
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Started the process to convert Berdan to Boxer primed cases.
It work is a bit tedious, but once I set up a production run, it will go faster.
I had no trouble drilling the hole thru the center of the Berdan anvil. The frustrating part was getting the depth set right so as to drill thru the anvil, but not the spent primer. These primers are crimped in place, and many times, the recapping pin punches a hole thru the spent primer.
Once hole is drilled and primer is removed remaining steps are:
Clean the remainder of the anvil off with a pocket depth uniformer Chamfer the enlarged pocket opening with a case mouth chamfer tool Press the bushing in using arbor press Trim the bushing flush (if necessary) with the case head with L E Wilson case trimmer Ream/chamfer the bushing with a LR primer pocket chamfer tool held in the LE Wilson trimmer
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Posted By: Mayhem
Date Posted: January 20 2024 at 4:51pm
Watching with interest. Will be interesting to see if you think the end result is worth the effort.
------------- .303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: January 20 2024 at 6:32pm
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Yes, setting the depth of the drill bit is paramount unless you want to fight to decap the spent Berdan primer. I use a tight fitting allen wrench to pry the holed primers out. I'm going to get back to converting some more of my fired MkVII ammo to see why the drill bit is always deflected to the side, something that doesn't happen with the Argentine ammo. I'm glad you're having success and enjoying the process, it's very satisfying to reload brass that usually gets thrown out.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 20 2024 at 7:13pm
Mayhem wrote:
Watching with interest. Will be interesting to see if you think the end result is worth the effort. |
I think it will be, for these reasons:
1) these are unquestionably match grade cases. Produced by Dominion Arsenal for the 1952 DCRA annual prize meeting (matches) and of known exceptional quality. They are the most consistent .303 cases I’ve weighted and measured. Rims are very consistent, all measured 0.062 thick.
2) good .303 case are hard to come by.
3) I shoot a lot, and need to restock my usable cases. I expect to get 40 reloads from these.
4) as my Dad would say, waste not, want not.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 5:37am
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Here is my setup for pressing the aluminum bushings into the Berdan primer pockets.
LE Wilson .303 Case gage, supports the case at the shoulder. Note that the case head sits above the gage as these are partial length sized cases to fit the chamber, not full length sized.
K&M Arbor Press pushes the bushing into the primer pocket. The bushing protrudes by a few thousands of an inch (case on the right), this gets trimmed off square to the case body with a LE Wilson case trimmer, with the head against the cutter.
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 7:22am
Very cool system for conversion.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 10:03am
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Got a batch of 60 cases done. The worst part is I had to ream the bushings after fitting.
The DAC 1951 Mk 7 cases have a Berdan primer pocket ID of 0.243 inches. The bushing OD is 0.256, far too large. It took about 100 lbs force to press them into the case head. That reduced the bushing ID to 0.201 for a primer that measures .210.
Reamed the bushings with a LR pocket reamer, which gave me a final pocket diameter of 0.208.
Once the brass is tumbled, I’ll seat the primers and load them up.
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 10:07am
You should start a Company that does this for cash.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 10:45am
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Got tired of turning the primer pocket reamer by hand. Amazing what you can do with duct tape.
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: January 21 2024 at 10:58am
Works for me.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 26 2024 at 11:01am
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50 rounds of DAC 1951 Mk 7z Berdan cases converted to Boxer primed cases loaded with my standard match load of 40.0 gr Varget, 174 Sierra MatchKing seated to 3.05 inch OAL.
These are packaged in the original cardboard 48 round carton, hence the two loose rounds…
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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: January 26 2024 at 1:16pm
Very nice.
------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 2:05pm
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Well, my first trial with these converted cases did not end well. I fired 10 rounds. Although the group was good, three of the cases blew/melted the aluminum bushings in the primer pockets. Why this happened, I do not know. Perhaps the high stresses resulting from the relatively large interference fit into the primer pocket were the cause, the bushings would have had to yield to fit in the pockets.
I will contact the seller of these and see what he thinks.
The bolt head was destroyed by the hot gasses. A very disappointing result.
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 2:21pm
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Wow that is disappointing. If nothing else, you did those of us a service who might of been thinking of doing this. My hats off to you sir.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 2:37pm
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Yes, a total failure.
I think the Canadian .303 Mk 7 case Berdan primer pocket diameter must be smaller than the European Large Berdan pockets, the bushings were just too large. If you look back on my earlier posts, it took over 100 lbs to press them into the case, then I had to ream them to accept the LR Boxer primer.
Hopefully, I’ll get this figured out. For starts, it will take a different sized bushing. I’ll pull down the other 40 rounds, will likely have to scrap the cases.
Fortunately, I have several spare #1 bolt heads the same length as this one.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 3:17pm
Ouch! Thanks for the heads up!
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: Mayhem
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 7:44pm
That does suck. Glad the bold head was the only casualty.
------------- .303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 4:46pm
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wow , it looked so promising up to that point ,
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 6:03pm
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I’m still trying to reach the guy who makes these kits. He doesn’t respond to the emails I have sent thru his website or returned my call i made this morning.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 11:10am
That doesn't sound good.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 12:13pm
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 3:20pm
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I did have a new bolt head that clocked up snug at just a degree or two overturn. It is a #0 bolt head, but .001 inch longer than the #1 that got damaged. It’s slightly tight on headspace, the bolt handle is about 1/32 inch from closing on the .064 GO gage, but no worries with that, encountering a .064 rim is very rare.
Back to the range on Friday to do the ladder test with the T at 600 yds and shoot some more test groups with the rebarreled Mk 1/3.
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 7:36pm
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was the boly head actually damaged or just needing cleanup ? it did not appear damaged - only filthy and it looks like it can be cleaned up ,
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 3:38am
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Badly melted around the primer. This bolt head already had some pitting from a cracked primer that happened a few years back, but this issue made that much worse. The picture I took was after wiping it “clean” with Hoppes.
On the tenth shot, I could see a flash of flame coming from the back of the breech, that must have been the worst of the three primer pocket bushing failures. I had looked at the case head after the first shot, and it looked OK, so went ahead and shot the remaining nine.
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Posted By: DarioPirovano
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 3:11pm
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Geoff, do you think it is still safe to use that bolt head?
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 4:19pm
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No, I wouldn’t chance it. Which is why I now have fitted one of my NOS spare bolt heads. I just hope the heat didn’t do any damage to the back of the barrel. It looks fine, and should be able to take that heat, but the bolt head sure did not. The only visible damage is to the front face of the bolt head.
The flash was very noticeable, must have been like a blow torch.
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 2:06am
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I've been following your odyssey with great interest britrifles as I was considering expanding my repertoire of converting Berdan to Boxer beyond the 7.65 X 53 Argentine. To date I've only converted the FN brass, none of the FMMAP that I have on hand and only loaded mild BL-(C)2 loads with the original 154gr. bullets I pulled. I did find that about 20% of the bullets I pulled were 174 gr. BT making me think that ammunition would have likely been for a machine gun and thus thicker brass for the violent extraction process? I should have marked those cases separately as they might have been the few that leaked a little gas. So far there has been no damage to the bolthead on my M1891 but after seeing the issues you've experienced I might shelve the idea of converting my old .303 brass.
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Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 6:58am
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Bad news about that bolt head Geoff. Those cases look horrendous! Personally I don't think the an insert between the case and the new primer is a good idea. You have two circumferences to seal. A bit like fitting two headgaskets! With the amount of pressure and heat, an insert would need to be threaded into the case to be reliable; but probably not enough material for that method.
------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 7:12am
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Yes, that could be. But, these have apparently worked on 7.62 NATO cases.
Perhaps the aluminum was work hardened too much because of the large interference, 0.013 interference on 0.243 diameter Berdan pocket. I don’t think these bushings are the correct size for these primer pockets.
Still have not heard back from the vendor.
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Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 9:31am
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I would also assume that with the large hole you drill centre and the 2 other berden holes, one would think your creating a path of lesser resistance. Basic physics. Not a great idea really. Gas will push back for that split second it takes to over come pushing the bullet out of the case. And in your experiment that`s exactly whats happening. Plus as Zed said having 2 circular sealing surfaces further exasperates the chance of failure.
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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 10:20am
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I know of an individual that has been doing this conversion but he is creating a Fail-Safe by taking a dab of Devcon or JB Weld on a tooth pic and sealing the Berdan primer holes before seating the new primer cup. According to him, he hasn't had one blow out, "YET."
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 11:14am
shiloh wrote:
I would also assume that with the large hole you drill centre and the 2 other berden holes, one would think your creating a path of lesser resistance. Basic physics. Not a great idea really. Gas will push back for that split second it takes to over come pushing the bullet out of the case. And in your experiment that`s exactly whats happening. Plus as Zed said having 2 circular sealing surfaces further exasperates the chance of failure.
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This happens in all center fire cartridge cases. The gas pushes on the primer, and it expands radially to form a seal and is prevented from blowing out the back of the case via the bolt.
This is a commercial kit that I bought, and has successfully been used. But for some reason, the aluminum bushings are not sealing against the case head primer pocket. My thoughts are because they have been overly strained to get them to fit into the primer pocket (they are too large in diameter for these cases). Once squeezed down past the yield point, they must be springing back just enough to no longer seal, or just on the edge of sealing.
Wish the guy who makes these would call me back, he may be able to get a different size of bushing.
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Posted By: DarioPirovano
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 5:05pm
I know that might sound stupid but why not? you could try test on some worn brass. Why not tig weld material inside the berdan primer pocket and then machine the pocket? If you are scared about melting holes everywhere when welding I can tell you I have seen people tig welding aluminium cans
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 5:51pm
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I suspect TIG welding would anneal the case head making it very susceptible to rupture.
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Posted By: DarioPirovano
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 5:54pm
Even with pre&post heat treatment? The potential annhealing is something I didn’t considered..
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 6:38pm
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Brass can only be hardened by working it (work hardening). This is done when brass cartridges are formed by drawing/extruding. If you heat the brass up to annealing temperatures, you remove the work hardening. That why you must be very careful when annealing cartridge case necks, overheating will not only burn the neck it can soften the case head which is a dangerous condition.
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Posted By: DarioPirovano
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 6:39pm
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Clear explanation, thank you
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 10:30am
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This is why savvy reloaders use some form of "heat shield" when annealing the shoulder & neck. It keeps the direct heating focused towards these areas while protecting the rear half. Midway has just started selling one, but I have no experience with it. Many, like myself, cobble something together from things we have lying about. Like deep well sockets of the appropriate size! 
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 6:57am
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When annealing case necks I stand them up in water deep enough to only anneal the case mouth. Once they're heated to the correct temperature I tip them over to "quench" them.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 2:58pm
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You're aware you cant "quench" brass yes? Not picking, I drop mine into a SS bowl of it after heating. I do it as I tend to anneal in big batches & dont want to create a heat soak pit by dropping a couple of hundred hot cases in higgldy-piggldy at a rate of one every 7 seconds.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 3:11pm
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I do the same, just air cool the cases. If you limit the heat application to just the neck and shoulder as Shamu does, you won’t risk annealing the case body and head.
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