Hoping to get better insight on how snipers were trained with the No. 4 T during WWII and how effective they were compared to other nations/rifles.  Might be a way to measure how well I'm able to shoot the T.  I've got Skennerton's book, The British Sniper, but not a lot of info in there regarding training and effective accuracy.

Yes I do.

Its a little disjointed, not being written by a professional writer, but bear with it.

His commentary on the standards & attitudes of "Tommy Atkins" to rifle marksmanship, post Dunkirque is revealing.

Yes!

I'll think you'll enjoy it Geoff, it's possibly not as technical as I think you would wish for but still a good read.

Captain C Shore, (Sea Shore??) I did wonder if this was an alias or a funny coincidence? 

The other "must have" in any shooters library is Sniping in France by, Major Hesketh-Pritchard DSO MC.

The HBSA (Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association) have a sniper shoot named after him as do the Transcontinental Rifle Association. 

The chap who runs the HBSA shoot has become a close friend over the last 25 years and he revealed to me that his first job after university was working for H-P's son.

He said it was  bit too early in his shooting interest to have asked all the right questions he knows he would have liked answers to. 

H-P jnr did give him one of his fathers shooting manuals which he treasures.  

I have both as .PDF files.

They are also available as E. Books.

I always assumed "C. Shore" was a Nom De Plume for a still serving (at the time) British officer.

Googling the name draws a blank even though there are several more books credited to the same author.

Mick, your full of interesting tidbits of info!  Always enjoy reading your posts.  

Not very technical, but worthwhile.

There is a new book just out about Britain's most successful sniper of WW2. There's a thread about that on Milsurps forum. 

That sounds interesting, what is the title of the new book?

I've scanned thru my copy of With British Snipers to the Reich, and agree, does not have much technical information.  There is a short discussion on target accuracy/group size.  He indicates that it's very difficult with the No. 4 T to get 5 shot groups under 2 inches at 100 yards, but can be done, 1.5 inches being exceptional.  And that is with Mk 7 ball ammo which we know has lot to lot variability.  He claims the British Mk 7 ammunition was very consistent and accurate.   I have not come across anything yet that would suggest snipers used "selected" ammo of known good accuracy.  But hard to believe they did not do this. 

  

The Solitary War of a Sniper - Martin Peglar'

It's about a chap called Hary Furness, well worth going over to Milsurps Geoff to see what's been said, also checkout "Nigel's" posts who knew him well.

Nigel was selling some of Harry's old books a while back.

I've heard lots of anecdotal information on them sourcing & preferring "red Label" .303 ammunition. Supposedly because it was U.S. Made & "for aircraft machine guns", meaning it was far better than the run of the mill "green label" stuff.

There was a quite a foofaraw over on Milsurps.com last year when I posted that I had read in David Gordon's excellent book "Uniforms of the WWII Tommy" that some snipers sewed a short length of Vickers fabric machine gun belt onto the forearm of one of their smock's sleeves for, and I'll quote, "special match grade ammunition".  The Old Guard over on that forum was adamant that snipers were never issued anything other than regular ammunition but David's research has been impeccable so  combined with the quote "But hard to believe they did not do this" I remain convinced they did.

anyone else is certainly welcome to differ 

The key word here being consistently. I think what he is saying is right on the mark. 

If I’m honest, I can’t attain a consistent 2” group at 100 yards with any of my No. 4 rifles, including the T.  I rarely beat that with iron sights or able to achieve a 2 MOA group out to 300 yards with the T perhaps 50% of the time.  And I’m using “match grade” handloads! I’m speaking of 10 shot groups, not five, but it still shows the high standard of accuracy of shooter, rifle and ammunition in WWII. 

My thought on "sewing part of a Vickers belt" is that it's fat, wide & very stiff, so I'd think it difficult to sew & even more so to wear!

Especially when they could source "ammo Belts" from various places with no problems.

Agreed. We're testing the rifle & load, not our shooting ability.

I use a front-rest & it's bag, a rear bag & barely touch the rifle except for the butt-stock & trigger.

This is intentional. I don't use the sled because recoil action is based on a somewhat "flexible" recoil absorption, (Me!) rather than a rigid "stop"

I usually have the front bag back where my offhand would be, just in front of the magazine, this was just for a photo set shot.

Capt Shore has another interesting write up on resting the rifle forend on a sandbag vs holding the forend and resting the hand on the sandbag. It was a popular belief that the forend should never be rested on a sandbag, only the support hand. He claims that is a myth and was dispelled. 

Yes, that’s how I hold the rifle in the sniper match. I rest the forend on the front bag about mid way between the magazine and sling swivel band, left hand reaches around to hold the butt stock into the shoulder and off the ground. Works quite well. 

I'm a little further back than that, I hold the fore-stock just in front of the center sling swivel.

I use the off hand to fine tune elevation.

Coarse sighting with the front rest screw, pinching the bag for a fine tune. Oh & resetting to the same spot on the front rest every shot.

I only ever shoot it with a modern rifle and bipod, the sandbags I used to put in front and behind of the bipod to minimise it creeping forward, although one if front should do the job. The heather filled bag I stuff under the right hand chest of my chest for support...it's an age thing! 

Looking at images of this years McQueens which ended today I notice only one sandbag per firing point but the have increased the number of "castles" to four from three.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalrifleassociationuk/54667281774/in/photostream/" rel="nofollow - McQueen Final - 20th July 2025 - Deachy 69 | OLYMPUS DIGITAL… | Flickr

These are the castles if you're unfamiliar with the McQueens, you get two sighters on a target frame to the side of the castle followed by ten 3 minute exposures with varying times between each one in any of the apertures on the castle or on top of the castellations. 

somewhat kidding but partially not , my body has aged more in the last couple years than it ever used to , i rather resnt being on the downhill slide to 80 but ive found no way to reverse the process , 

but i do enjoy reading of your experiences and only wish id have thought of it sooner in life 

I feel ya A square, the last three years haven't been good to me health-wise.  I always kept fit throughout my Sixties, walking 3 1/2 miles 5 times a week, Planking several times for a minute at a time, could still do 12 pushups and a few pull-ups.  I could crawl around underneath and over my vehicles to do repairs and whatnot.  Then came the Prostate cancer diagnosis in late 2022 with 40 Proton therapy sessions which weren't too bad but 4 Lupron injections absolutely devastated my physical abilities.  I lost a lot of muscle mass and gained weight way too easily.  That was followed by a kidney stone attack and lithotripsy, then MOHS surgery for a BCC, then a hip replacement.  I feel like I've aged 20 years in just three.

This is indeed the one thing I am finding more difficult as the years pass, especially after those 20 round strings of prone slow fire.  I'm not yet at the point of needing to use my cart as a crutch, but that is coming.  

In the sniper match, there are several shooters that are in their 80's.  Their shooting partner helps them get back up.  It's good to see these guys out there, and some are very good shooters.  Gives the rest of us some hope...  

I prefer to shoot prone but like the rest of you I often need help getting back up; usually by climbing up my No.4 and using it as a stick to steady myself. 

The damp winters are the worst and seem to make the metal work in my body ache far more than summer.  

I've had one knee relaced and the other is now on the way out.