M.O.A. w/bayonet
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Bayonets
Forum Description: General discussion about bayonets for the Enfield rifles
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5802
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 6:03pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: M.O.A. w/bayonet
Posted By: 25-5
Subject: M.O.A. w/bayonet
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 11:39pm
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I have a Savage spike bayonet on my Rifle No.4 MKII. Has anyone any info on how the barrel harmonics affect the M.O.A. with the bayonet attached. Is it different (worse) with the metal scabbard attached as well. I am going to give it a try myself,when the weather is a bit nicer, but I am curious. ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 1:04am
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i can understand your desire to shoot it with fixed bayo , the scabbord idea illudes my understanding however ,
i believe the POA/POI is altered a bit when bayonet is fixed , downward i should think
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Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 1:28am
| The harmonics are vastly different when firing with a fixed bayonet. To my knowledge the Russians were the only ones to set up their rifles so they were meant to be fired with the bayonet attached. Anyone that has fired a few 91/30's can attest that they are actually more accurate with the bayonet than without. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 2:02am
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The "L" flip sights were marked as 300/500 yds, but the POI was supposedly changed to 400yds with a bayonet fitted & the sight set to the 300yd setting. Based on that the POI should increase by a bit vertically upwards. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 4:17am
| OK ...... but why praytell would exerting force downward on the muzzle raise the point of impact ????? |
Posted By: muffett.2008
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 4:25am
| Methinks all Enfield zeroing and sight setting was done with the bayonet attached, unless the books are wrong. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 6:29am
Just guessing, but maybe hanging a pointy bit of steel weighing a couple of pounds on the muzzle changed the barrel harmonics? Vibrating UP at the moment of projectile exit instead of MIDDLE or DOWN  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
A square 10 wrote:Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 6:31am
I don't know about the books, but I never even saw a bayonet carried at the range when sighting or zeroing, much less fitted one.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 2:25pm
Stick the bayonet in the target muzzle on the bull and squeeze the trigger repeat as often as you like and voila you have a tight group in the bull!  ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 2:46pm
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If you were concerned about using the bayonet I think the long trajectory would not be a major concern. I suppose you could put it on the rifle and use the battle sight and see where it impacts at 25 and 50 yards. If it proves hopeful try 100 & 200. It has little effect on a MAS 36 having the bayonet fixed, but it stores the bayonet under the barrel. It is a spikey thing that does not actually make contact with the barrel and that may be why. The CMP no longer allows competitors to shoot in matches with the bayonet fixed. I heard through the rumor mill that there was a near miss with a bayonet at Camp Perry a few years ago. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 2:55am
| that conjurs a word picture i was not prepared for ....... |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 3:08am
Why not just shove the spike in till you hit the .311" dia part & stop there?
 You could nagger a bit of tape round the shaft to mark the sweet spot as well ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 3:27am
Oops, "Smart Bum" in your case. ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 2:31pm
Of course I'm smart!! I'm a Yorkshireman! ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 12:15am
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"Of course I'm smart!! I'm a Yorkshireman!" Wow first time I heard THAT one! ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 1:10am
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iirc: "You can always tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't make him listen" ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 2:50am
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And now a comment from a "smart arse" who does know what he's talking about Whats with all the minute of angle mantra?? The rifles were set up to cope with a bayonet on the end not as a benchrest toy. As for barrel harmonics in the dark days of WW1 and WW2 when the Hun was knocking on the door equipment wasn't available to measure barrel harmonics accurately they were designed as a combat rifle and as such were very accurate. The rifle is only as accurate as the floppy pink bit behind the stock and quite frankly if anybody came on the range with a fixed bayonet when I'm RO I'd boot them off as a safety hazard. The forum "Rottie" ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:20am
Tell 'em what ya REALLY think,Tony!  Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:58am
I sure will Hoadie. It was you who christened me the forum Rottie and I'll live up to your expectations!! ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 5:37am
| as a CRO at our facility i too would tell my ROs to evict someone with fixed bayo "except" in the case of our anual vintage military rifle shoot , its considered a requirement for that section of the course of fire |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 5:41am
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I always get a kick out of threads that go like this. A while back I had a Trilux SUIT sight, mounted on an FN-FAL. It’s an odd scope to say the least. The front lens is offset ½" to the left of center & the eyepiece centered at the rear. This was done to keep length minimized & not have the gas block, front sight & its “ears” in the field of view of the sight. You should see some of the incredibly convoluted methods dreamt up to zero or sight in this sight because of the ½” horizontal offset. What was the real answer? Simple, have the MPOI strike ½" left of the POA, that’s it! Why? Well you see the spec for the FN-FAL calls for a 10 round group to have a 3-½” vertical by 2 ¾” horizontal group at 100yds. All those calculating convergence, like a WW@ fighter’s guns & using Pythagoras theorem were just beating themselves up because by 50yds the ½” was gone into shot dispersion anyway! Same with the Lee Enfield, it’s a battle rifle, designed to not have “Minute of Angle” target rifle performance, but “minute of adversary” battlefield accuracy out to 600yds 70% of the time. Want MOA? get a custom Remington 700 with a Shilen bull barrel & load up Sierra target loads! Can live with 3” groups’ (which used to qualify qualify as “Marksman” in the Brit forces) all you need is a good well-maintained Battle rifle like the FAL or No4 Mk2.  
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 7:35am
For all my fellow RO's. The spike bayonet looks like a nasty piece of work. I have no intention of sticking anybody in the "arse". I am at the 200yd range of my club all by myself for a few hours of a weekday AM. Bye the bye, I would not take a loaded rifle with bayonet down range to stick the target and shoot a good group as suggested.  ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 7:46am
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Sham; The BREN has an offset sight.Its UNBELIEVABLY accurate! Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 9:20am
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I as an RO will allow someone to fix a bayonet on the firing line if the range is not crowded and they ask me first. You have gotten me currious so I may have to give it a try myself sometime when the range isn't crowded. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 1:48pm
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From "A Basic Manual of Military Small Arms", by W H B Smith, page 21. "In the production model of the rifle now being issued (No.4 MkI*), there are two apeture sights set at right angles to each other. One is set for 300 yards with bayonet fixed. When the bayonet is removed this sight is accurate to 400 yards. The second sight is set for 600 yards without bayonet. Customary battle practice is to have bayonet fixed when the enemy is in range of 300 yards or less." The same information may be found in Reynolds' "the Lee Enfield Rifle". Reynolds also states that rifles were sighted in at the factory without the bayonet.
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Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 2:18pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxQKF2gkMgo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxQKF2gkMgo ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:31pm
Oh dearie dearie me! Get your glasses on Shamu!!! You were supposed to shoot the target on the top left. The main target is for bayonet practice!!! As for the "spiked bayonet" it was 1 cheap to make and 2 ideal when attached to the handle of an entrenching tool to probe for mines the other saving grace was it didn't stick due to vacuum when shoved in the "minute of adversary". Hoadies comment re Bren is very valid we lugged a lot of brens converted to 762 out to the Falklands owing to a shortage of machine guns and like the originals were very accurate and a lot lighter and faster to deploy than the GPMG when we ran into the Argies.------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 9:03pm
Figures you'd use a "Northern" take on that. No matter...Best scene/sound of bayonets I've EVER experienced was @ the 125th battle of G'Burg.We were doin Pickett's.We were behind the Conf. artillery(reverse slope)during the arty duel.Officers came gallopping over the hill as the canon fire slackened. Orders given-Sgt's screamed, "FIX BAYONETS!".(This STILL gives me chills!)As ONE-more than 4,000 bayonets were pulled from the scabbards, & fixed in complete unison!!You could NEVER have rehearsed that!It was a VERY loud "swish...click,clack" It was so loud that 1 mile away, across the field, they heard it in the union line!!IT WAS AWESOME, to say the least!(Damn! I'm proud to have been part of that!) ..the confederate army was non-union! Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 11:34pm
Oops I got the 300/400yd thing reversed. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 1:30am
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Thanks guys. Lots of interesting info. I am having a great time with this rifle. I have done a lot of shooting but never thought to have a bayonet.
I have made a bunch of different .303 loads and can't wait to experiment.
Glad to see you all have a good humor and a bit of thick skin. ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 5:33am
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Tony is the one with the thick skin....he's part reptile! (& a small part Rottie) Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 6:22am
I have pointy things that go on my rifles:
 Just a representative example of major types.
The one on the Frenchie came with it. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 6:38am
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Hey, Tony! What little target? I can almost see the big one!  *flasback* There were eggs, eggs wiv gert big 'airy leggs in the stores, in the stores. There were eggs, eggs, wiv gert big 'airy leggs in the stores, in the stores. In the quatermasters stores. (ok,sing me the chorus) *believe it or not, this actually is on topic* ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 7:47am
Would you please edit your post with a list of the models. The top looks like mine so a #4, and the #5 is easy. The rest????? ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 8:37am
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Top to Bottom
No4 Mk1 Longbranch 1941 and no bloody *
M1917 Winchester
No5 Mk1 Fazakerley 1946
No1 MkIII BSA 1939
MAS 36 Post War late 1945 or early 1946 ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: muffett.2008
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 5:04pm
| My eyes are dim, I can not see, I have not brought my spec's with me......... |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 10:51pm
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Ding! Ding! Ding! & we have a winner  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 5:01am
and some for rifles i no longer have
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 7:57am
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A Sq: Cud you I.D them fer me? Methinks I know the top 2. Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 10:16pm
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they are for the swiss rifles and carbines i no longer have .....
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