Sight Adjustment Tool
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7123
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 8:52pm
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Topic: Sight Adjustment Tool
Posted By: Homer
Subject: Sight Adjustment Tool
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 4:36am
There always seems to be discussion on front sight adjustment but I've never seen one posted like that on the right. Anyone else got one? |
Replies:
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 7:32am
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Where did you find this one? Never see one like this one before. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 8:56am
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Never seen one like it. It might be a good basis for the "unhiversal" one I'm dreaming of though. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 12:04pm
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That one on the right looks like it might be good for the SMLE's with the full ears on the nose cap; what a great idea. I've been thinking about how to make one for my No1 rifle, that looks just the ticket! ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 1:58pm
At a gun shop about four years back but I'd never seen one before that and havent seen another since. It works very well, not quite as positive as the other one pictured, but certainly 100 times better than a hammer and punch and you don't have to remove the nose cap. If I was making sight tools, this is the one I'd be making. |
paddyofurniture wrote:Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 15 2014 at 4:22am
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Once you've measured how far the tip moves for one turn of the screw then your good to go. Definately need to see about making something like this. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 11:26am
 Or you could buy one of these.Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 2:28am
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It strikes me as strange that of all the Lee Enfields I have owned and fired, including rifles I have re barrelled.... I have only once had to adjust a foresight... And I have NEVER had to change a sight blade height! Is it possible that only the rifles in the US have sighting problems, and the possible reason for this is the almost exclusive use of 'factory' ammunition as opposed the MkVII ball the rifles were designed and sighted for. Maybe it has come about from too many home gunsmiths messing with them when they didn't perform with ammo they were never intended to use? Not wanting to derail your thread, Homer, but is there any market for a home designed sight tool anywhere but the US? |
Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 3:19am
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MaxP Interesting you posted that, because it was only last weekend I was at Belmont range having a chat with three older gents shooting enfields out to 200 metres. I asked them how they adjusted the sights and if they used a tool and not one of them had had to make adjustments or owned a tool. I didn't ask what type of ammo they were using. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 4:49am
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I had to replace the wood on my NO5. The factory wood had been sanded to the point it no longer fit & "glass bedded" so poorly it shot 18" patterns, not groups. When the new stock was fitted it shot (probably like the original before it was messed up) to a different point of aim. The No4 Mk2 still shoots dead on to point of aim as it left the factory though. AS for shooting "factory" instead of "Surplus" that's a myth. If we can find or store surplus we shoot it. Unfortunately its hard to find find the last few years so we shoot what we can get. The alternative would be to gloat over unused rifles or shoot factory. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 7:28am
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Agreed that once it's set properly, the front blade should not need adjusting; however in reality it may have been adjusted by someone to correct another fault. For example; my No1MkIII* was consistently shooting to the left and the front blade was already adjusted to the left by the previous owner. The actual fault was the rear sight blade was moving sideways due to wear on the fulcrum. With the new rear sight the rifle shot right of centre (due to the front blade being set too far left) now the front blade is centered and it's spot on. Both my No8's required very minor adjustments to get the centre line. Once set though, no need to touch it again. I don't think the type of ammunition would have any effect apart from elevation change; which can be easily compensated for on the rear sight. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 9:47am
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Part of reason for folks in the U.S. needing to adjust front sights is that most of the ex Military rifles imported here for the last few decades have come from Countries that got them as aid after WWII. They often show signs of abuse or neglect. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 9:49am
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Guys: Zed is right on the type of ammo not affecting windage to any large degree. But only shooting surplus ammo must greatly restrict your shooting. Don't any of you guys Reload?If your front sight is off then it needs to be adjusted. Many won't need any adjustment, and especially if they weren't banged around or messed with. However if it is off, it needs to be set correctly. This was obviously an Armorers job, and they had the tool to do it predictably so they didn't waste ammunition chasing the sight around. I had to adjust my gun to the right 3.5" when I first shot it and I originally attributed this to the fact the gun came with a Mk2 rear sight and I installed a Mk1 sight. However my Front sight is so cockeyed that it needs the blade off to the left in order to be aligned with the centerline of the barrel. See Pic This is actually why it needed to be moved. Funny as I completely disassembled this gun and didn't notice the front sight until I started messing with it.  I was able to make that adjustment in just one move because I had made a tool that allowed a precise adjustment. I am a machinist and I can do this. I'm sure others could to. The idea of using a drift punch and hammer to do this is what a Bubba would do and would probably require divine intervention or blind luck to extract any degree of success in a reasonable amount of time. Now that I have installed the Redfield Olympic rear sight I will probably won't have to move it again as that sight has a windage adjustment and that was the reason why I installed it in the first place. There should be very little if any windage correction necessary between Ammo types. Differences in ammunition generally result in elevation changes due to differences in Velocity, but that doesn't affect windage. Granted,,, sometimes it does make small changes however we are talking less than .5" at 100 yards. With these rifles and their sighting systems it would be hard to detect what caused a 1/2" deflection in the shot. I have a friend in NZ who has done extensive accuracy testing with Enfield rifles of all series, and all available ammo types. He has concluded that a really good Enfield is a 2-3MOA gun, and that was the benchmark for selecting guns to be raised to the "T" level at the factory. Most are 3-4MOA and some are considerably worse than that. 4 MOA is 12" at 300 yards and still a viable Battle Weapon. Even today most Military AR's (M4) shoot no better than 3 MOA. Sure they can be made to shoot well but with Iron sights or even Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets. With Red Dot sights the average guy will never get a group smaller than the diameter of the dot. With accuracy in this regime it would be hard to detect the need for minor windage changes. But I would be willing to bet that a WWII British Armorer who did nothing all day but sight in rifles, would have shot a 3 shot group and made a windage correction with his tool and then not even check it. After doing a few hundred rifles I think you'd get the hang of it. With the #4 rifles 29" sight radius,,, .008 = 1 MOA. My tool has 1/4-28 threads which result in .036 movement per revolution. Since I use bolts with either Hex heads or Allen heads it is easy to move the sight one "flat," which is .006" or 3/4 MOA . Another consideration that will help you guys extract a little more accuracy is the type of target you shoot at. The front sight blade of a #4 is .050 wide. That is 6MOA with this sight radius. if you use a target spot that is a 6" square for 100 yards or 3" for 50, it makes it much easier to index your front sight on the target by lining the blade up with the sides of the square and the top of the sight to the bottom of the square. Obviously this must be done off a solid rest with a bag under the buttstock as well. When you are cutting your sights to this degree no movement of the gun is acceptable. Hope some of this helps you achieve greatness or at least have more fun. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:02am
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Probably 1/2 the members on here reload. Many are happy with S&B, PPU or other commercial makers. My point originally was that the myth of who shoots what was just that, a myth. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:10am
| PRVI Partizan 174gr FMJBT shoots exactly 10" high and 6" left from both my 1950 longbranch and 1948 Fazakerly no4s. They clock at about 2300 fps. My handloads with 174gr BTHPs shoot 3" high and dead center. I don't know the muzzle velocity, but I bet it's in the 2450 range. It never fails that a slower load with the same weight bullet will shoot high (counter-intuitive. I know) and off center. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:19am
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It was starting to sound like most guys were only shooting "Surplus Ammo." That would surely limit the fun here in the US. Friday Afternoon I made 480 of these,,, Which will keep me shooting for another couple of months after which I should have a good Cast Boolit Load sussed out. Got a few things to try on that one. These will be used primarily for shooting Short Range Silhouette Matches. 50,100,150,and 200 Meters.  I am still waiting for someone to get the Hornady 174 gr RN's in stock so I can get that load finalized and by then the 215 gr Woodleigh's should be here. That would conclude load development for this gun and I would then just shoot the he!! out of it. Glad to hear there are reloaders here. 1/2 the fun. Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:28am
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LongBranch: In Pistols,,, Slower loads always shoot high. Reason being, that they spend more time in the barrel during Recoil, and thus the muzzle is pointing higher by the time the boolit exits. A similar point could be made for shooting from an unsupported position with a rifle where the gun is rocking you back during recoil thus making the muzzle rise and thus the shot with it. It would take a movement of about .050 or slightly less than 1/16th " to make a 6" change in the shot at 100 yards. This same phenomenon could be extended to the windage offset. A rifle with a left hand twist will move the buttstock away from your cheek in recoil which would push the muzzle to the left. This is entirely in the realm of believability. Typically off a rest the slower rounds will shoot lower simply because of the trajectory's decay. Sounds like Rocket Science, huh? Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:56am
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It have read (book not internet) that flexing of the Enfield barrel's is what makes the slow shots impact high and the higher velocity low at shorter distances. It was apparently well known amongst shooters when these rifles were used in long range competitions and the effect was that at longer distances the path's would cross, making the rifle more "accurate at 600 yards than at 200 yards. I have seen this personally when chronometering hand loads against the PRVI factory rounds in my No1MkIII*, although I have not seen any lateral deviation caused by the velocity. If the rifle throw's certain velocities to one side I would first off, get someone else to shoot it and see if they have the same results, then I would be checking out the fit of the fore arm around the barrel and also the contact at the draws etc. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 11:23am
| All rifles do this. The reason being that the bullet has to rise up into the line of sight. The slower bullet has more time to rise before it impacts. This has held true for every surplus rifle I've loaded for. A friend of mine brought me some ammunition he was loading for the wounded warriors project. He didn't have a 303 and wanted me to test it. It was loaded with BLc(2). It was hot stuff (BLc(2) generates higher velocities without overpressure). It shot very low and far right. Now, if you load two different weights and/or types of bullets for the rifle, all that goes out the window. This effect is magnified in pistols because of the recoil characteristics, and so it shows up at shorter ranges. |
Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 12:09pm
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Hmmmm... seems I will have to set some time aside later to address some facts that are either missing or totally wrong here... Will get back in the next day or two. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 12:30pm
Max: it does take a while for responses from DU to get here from there.  Randy------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 1:24pm
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Its one of those oft quoted & even more frequently misunderstood myths. I does NOT mean the rifle shoots tighter groups at longer ranges. Just that it disperses less than you'd expect as range increases. For a long time expert shooter kept the .303 for 1,000 yd shots, but shot the 7.62 out to 650 Yds. Why? Well, because the .303 out-shot the 7.62 at that distance. I've heard many theories why but it just did in My Opinion, I neither know, nor care why if it could get me a higher score "out there" (where matches are won, or lost), then I'll do it. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 1:42pm
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That's more a confusion about the term "Minute of angle". If someone says their rifle shoots 2MOA at 100 yards and 1.5MOA at 600 yards, the average person thinks that means 2" @100 and 1.5"@600. There's also some confusion about the term "accuracy". I was zeroing a rifle at the local range once. Someone watched as I shot a 1" group 4" away from the dot at 100 yards. He said "that rifle don't shoot good. You need ta let somebody look at that." |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:35am
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They always used to differentiate shooting for group & shooting for score back when i shot with the RAF. Trying to put them all in the bull was "scoring", but shooting for a group (wherever) was "application". The goal was to be aware of the different way to use sights for the different purposes. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:59am
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Ok, got a few minutes, thought I'd start with this old chestnut... as it leads to the rest of the story, probably a good place to start.... quotes from somewhere above.... 1. I don't think the type of ammunition would have any effect apart from elevation change; which can be easily compensated for on the rear sight. 2. .... is right on the type of ammo not affecting windage to any large degree. 3. There should be very little if any windage correction necessary between Ammo types. Differences in ammunition generally result in elevation changes due to differences in Velocity, but that doesn't affect windage 4. My point originally was that the myth of who shoots what was just that, a myth. 5. It never fails that a slower load with the same weight bullet will shoot high (counter-intuitive. I know) and off center. 6. Typically off a rest the slower rounds will shoot lower simply because of the trajectory's decay. Ok, please take a minute to absorb this... It is probably the simplest explanation I can find... I will expand on it... From the moment that trigger is pressed and the firing pin strikes the primer until the bullet leaves the muzzle, a series of many vibrational impulses begin in the rifle, all of which are transmitted to the barrel in various magnitudes. These include such minor things as; the trigger sear releasing the firing pin, the firing pin moving forward, striking the primer, and the cartridge being moved forward. The powder then begins to ignite, and the bullet starts moving forward and engages the rifling. Because of the twist of the rifling, the bullet while it is being propelled forward, begins to spin imparting a small but measurable torque, but more importantly as it traverses the barrel it also sets up a circular vibrational pattern, or arc. The heat of the burning powder along with the pressure wave generated by the expanding gasses start another vibrational pattern that is induced into the barrel. All of these movements cause the barrel to stress and vibrate with a number of different harmonic patterns which if not controlled by some means cause each projectile to leave the muzzle at a slightly different point in the vibrational arc. Some people speak about the "whip" of the barrel, which would imply to some, that the barrel simply vibrates up and down like a buggy whip. Although there are some of the vibrations that are traveling in this direction, the main vibrations are circular. If this were not true, then a 3 shot group from a rifle would always be in a vertical string. This would be because, one would leave at the bottom of the "whipping action", one would leave from the center and one from the upper travel of the "whip". As we all know this seldom occurs, and if it does, it is usually caused by the barrel being under a heavy stress, such as way to much pressure exerted against it, caused by improper bedding, usually of the barrel. Most 3 shot groups you will see will be virtually triangular in shape, this is caused because as the barrel vibrates through its "circular arc" one bullet leaves the muzzle at say 12 o’clock, another at say 4 o’clock and the third at maybe 8 o’clock. The larger the arc of the barrel, the less accurate the rifle will be, and the larger the triangle. As a rule the less mass a barrel has, (the thinner) the more it is affected by the vibrations, this is the reason that a "heavy" barrel seems to shoot more consistently than a sporter barrel, and is also easier to tune.Ok, so now barrel whip is actually circular in motion. The art (yes, ART) of accurising a rifle is in taming those vibrations. Tame the circular motion. As said above, the tighter the circle the smaller the group. The circular motion varies during each shot. The aim is to have the projectile exiting the barrel during the period where it's motion is at it's smallest arcYou have possibly heard or seen written that the Lee Enfield barrel is tuned for MkVII ammunition, that is a 174gn spitzer projectile exiting the muzzle at 2440 fps. The correct bedding combination of well fitted factory woodwork will dampen the vibrations to the point that the MkVII ammunition is departing the barrel at the point where the muzzle is in it's smallest arc. (they worked all this out over a hundred years ago) If your ammunition is very accurately hand loaded, then it can improve the results even further because it will be exiting at near the same point of the arc every time so less dependent on having a small arc for accuracy. Now... add some other ammunition, say a 150gn pill doing 2600fps. The likelihood that it will cause the exact same vibration pattern and exit at the exact same point in the muzzle's circular motion is not good. In fact it might even be exiting the barrel while it is at it's most violent motion. With ammunition that isn't finely measured, the result will be a noticeably larger group (hey, there's something we've all probably seen in a rimfiree with different ammo, now we know what heavily contributed to it) But if you are using good quality handloads, then you might see it group reasonably well, but print a few inches off to the side because they have all departed the barrel during the time it was at it's furthest off to that side. If you want proof of all this, just ask any benchrest shooter for a look at his load development targets. He might be shooting for tight group size primarily, but the groups will all be centered on different parts of the target. Once he confirms his tightest group, the sights can be adjusted to bring that load on centre. If barrel whip were up and down, they would be in line above one another. To touch on the light load shooting high... There are a couple of possibilities. The pills are exiting at the extreme top of a violent muzzle arc. The load is so light the powder is spread along the case exposing a large surface on top, and giving a flash over ignition. The pressures that can be produced by such a change to the burn pattern could change the barrel whip and the POI quite drastically. Now, back to something I have said... these rifles are tuned for MkVII ammunition. If the rifle is in good nic and has not been messed with in the bedding, it should shoot to the sights both windage and elevation with MkVII. If you or anyone else before you used any other ammo and adjusted the sights because it was way off, it was because the rifle was not tuned for the ammo you used. If it appears to be in good nic but you cannot get it to group (not centre, group) no matter what you use including MkVII, then it's possible the bedding is out as well. One more favourite of mine... Sure they can be made to shoot well but with Iron sights or even Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets Could not be further from the truth. The sights have nothing to do with the accuracy (as long as they work) You can stick a rifle in an Enfield Rest and fire ten shot groups all day and get the best accuracy possible without even looking along the barrel. It's only when you add the human element that the rifle is not capable of it's best. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 9:05am
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MaxP: Great research above and that is a very good description of what happens when a shot is fired. In defense of my comment. Sure they can be made to shoot well but with http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=5316&m=1665981347&q=n&rdgt=1414407057&it=1414839057&et=1415011857&priceret=20.49&pg=~~3&k=8ff605bd57c26593caa85dc7b7c79800&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB00N1SHVHS%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB00N1SHVHS3341556%3Fsmid%3DA1ZBC4ACE6HAEJ%26tag%3Dpgmp%2D1585%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Ddf0%26creative%3D395109%26creativeASIN%3DB00N1SHVHS&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~" rel="nofollow - Iron sights or even http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=1283071742&q=n&rdgt=1414406658&it=1414838658&et=1415011458&priceret=234.73&pg=~~3&k=f580278e5394cde141ba57fa7a62228a&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB00D4L4D0A%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB00D4L4D0A3347188%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D1585%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Ddf0%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB00D4L4D0A&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~" rel="nofollow - Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets. I was referring to AR's in that sentence, and with those sighting systems 3-4MOA IS about as good as it gets in the real world. And that is good enough for the intended purpose of the weapon.Could not be further from the truth. The sights have nothing to do with the accuracy (as long as they work) You can stick a rifle in an Enfield Rest and fire ten shot groups all day and get the best accuracy possible without even looking along the barrel. It's only when you add the human element that the rifle is not capable of it's best. I agree with most all of what you say, however you are talking about "mechanical accuracy" not "field accuracy." Most of us shoot while actually holding the gun. (Bench rest shooters aside) Thus the Human Element always affects the guns accuracy. If you were able to shoot from an Enfield Rest all the time there would be no need for sights. Being able to index the sights to the target the same way everytime is what defines Field Accuracy , and the sights are the interface between the person and the gun, However no matter how accurate the rifle is mechanically, the level of precision of the sighting system and your ability to use that system will limit that accuracy in the field. Certain types of sighting systems are simply more accurate than others, everybody can agree with this point I'm sure. If you have a gun that shoots .5 MOA and you install a Red Dot Sight with a 3 MOA dot the best you will see is about 3 MOA, unless you figure out a way to index that dot on the target in the exact same place every time. We usually do this by indexing the dot at the 9 O'clock position on the outside edge of the target spot using the edge of the dot. If you try to center the dot on the target the best you will shoot is 3MOA. There is no specific indexing point. A Red Dot sighting system is more about Speed of Target acquisition than High Precision Shot Placement. Conversely a High Power Target Scope allows you to precisely index the crosshairs on a specific point on the target and better use the inherent accuracy of the gun.. If you don't include the man in the equation the rifles mechanical accuracy means nothing as a gun can't shoot itself. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 9:29am
Also true, My rifle shoots to POA & makes consistent 1 3/4" groups for 10 rounds at 100 yds. I wish I did! ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:54am
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Max P, thank you very much for taking the time to explain that. It does make sense and will probably help improve my understanding when trying different loads. At present I have 2x.303's that I reload for. I have only been using 174gr Spitzer type Sierra orgives and in my No4 rifle I aimed to get the velocity as close to 2440 ft/sec. At this speed it seems to work very well; it requires 39,3 grains of Tubal3000 in this rifle. However with the No1 rifle which is a more recent purchase I've found that the same load is too fast and grouping much larger than the factory PRVI rounds that I bought to compare. (PRVI chrono at 2380 ft/sec in this rifle). Obviously different powder in the PRVI so difficult to compare, but the bullet weight is the same. I have more testing to do on this rifle; but have found that 37,4 grains of Tubal 3000 shoots similar groups to the PRVI at a speed of around 2415ft/sec. I am going to try a slightly slower powder in this rifle as I believe the Tubal 3000 is maybe a bit to hot for the thinner No1 barrel. I see were that experiment leads. Zed. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 2:20pm
| Tubal3000. That's a Nobel Sport powder right? I hear good things about it. |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 3:16pm
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My Enfield Rifle No. 4 Mk2 is about 2.5 minutes to the right at 200 yards. I found this on Ebay along with similar tools for other Enfields. It's $25.00 What do you think? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Enfield-No-4-sight-adjustment-tool-SMLE-British-/251637531219?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a96c40253" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Enfield-No-4-sight-adjustment-tool-SMLE-British-/251637531219?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a96c40253 I reloaded with .311 174 gr Sierra Match Kings HPBT and Hornady .3105 174 gr FMJBT. Windage results were almost the same for both bullets.
------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 3:51pm
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25-5 I saw that one before I made mine. That one has to have the Sight Protector Removed to work. It also needs to be Deburred. Which one looks better? Mine is $10 more but you'll save that much not having to buy band aids after you use it. Also are you talking 2.5" or 2.5 MOA? At 200 yards 2.5 MOA would be 5" Randy   ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:13pm
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MOA. Somehow I didn't realize you had them for sale. I suppose I didn't read everything. So much about the ammo etc. At 100 yds I would just use a bit of left Kentucky windage and plunk em in, but at 200 it's more difficult. Yes, I would like one of yours. Let me know what you need. ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:27pm
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I think Mine are waiting on me at the house right now!!! I have one more day and a wake up, then I get on that Yeller Bird and head to the beach !!!!! ------------- "White Rhino" "Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 3:51am
Yes that is correct. I find it works well in my No4 rifle but people here keep telling me to use Vitha vouri powder, saying it's more consistent batch to batch than the Nobel Sport. Problem is no one has any in stock and I believe the factory closed. I have also heard that the Reload Swiss powder is worth a look, but again finding it locally is a problem. Also I don't want too many variables at one time, it's to easy to loose the plot. I've just switched to Federal Match primers and also have some Semllier Bellot 180 grain orgives to test; so that's enough to be going on with. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 8:31am
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25-5: just PM me and I'll get one coming to you. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: November 08 2014 at 10:04am
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For a couple years shooting my Enfield Rifle No.4 Mk2, I have been holding to the left a couple inches at 100 yards. Not too much of a problem, except I like 200 yards better. Now, I was shooting kinda sorta five inches to the right. I was annoyed after spending so much time on reloads. Anyway, I PM'd W.R. Buchanan and had his tool in two days. A well made tool as his pics above show. Machinists are a persnickety lot. A good thing, as the tool fits over the foresight protector like a glove and aligns the adjusting screws. I followed the directions and moved the sight 2.25 MOA. I went to the range yesterday and took the tool. I did not need any further adjustment. That was just luck, but, the tool would be easy to use at the range for any finite adjustments. ------------- For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon. |
Posted By: Stevejo
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 9:52am
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posting on an ancient thread here, but one question I have about the issue of “US Enfields” shooting so far off is, would it be that so many were sold here when the British government started liquidating them and several US companies would “sporterize” them? I have a #1 mk 3 SMLE and it shoots 2 ft high at 100 yards. Even the 060 replacement sight won’t correct for that, so I’ll have to weld some material to it and trim to zero. (It is just a sporterized rifle, not a collector. No feinting please)
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Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 11:04am
Just a question as I'm a bit confused You talk about the "US Enfield", which is the No3 Mk1* but then go onto say its a No1 Mk3. Are you talking about two different rifles or have you got the numbers mixed up, or am I mistaking what you mean by US Enfield ? |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 1:21pm
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This is an interesting old thread, hadn’t see it before. I think the discussion was about the apparent need for front sight adjustments for LEs that are in the US (not a “US Enfield”). Presumably because US shooters have messed with the rifles, or not shooting the ammunition they were “designed” to shoot, the Mk VII cartridge. Well, the Mk 1 SMLE predated the Mk VII Cartridge by about 6 years... These rifles can be made to shoot exceptionally well with bullets other than the Mk VII 174 gr flat based bullet. And yes, that likely will require a sight adjustment. No big deal, although it is easier to adjust the front sight on a No. 4 rifle than on a No. 1. Cutting down the forend to make a sporter alters the pressure on the barrel from the forend, essentially remove it. The barrel needs the forend to dampen vibration to obtain good accuracy? If the bullet leaves the barrel when the muzzle is at, or near, the top of the vibration cycle the shots will be high. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 4:59pm
I think he's referring to the P-14, M1917 series. Those are frequently mentioned as U.S. Enfields. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 12:13am
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Well, thanks guys, that makes it clear as mud : I think the discussion was about the apparent need for front sight adjustments for LEs that are in the US (not a “US Enfield”). I think he's referring to the P-14, M1917 series. Those are frequently mentioned as U.S. Enfields.  |
Posted By: pisco
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 2:38am
| a good starting load is 16gr 2400, 4227 |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 4:45am
Here’s where I got my interpretation that “US Enfields” was in reference to LE’s that are in the US, not M1917 rifles.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 6:30am
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It could be either, the description is ambiguous. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 11:45am
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OK,,, I think someone got their numbers mixed up. But what the hey. To clarify, my tool fits over the Front Sight Protector on a #4 Mk1 Rifle, It won't work on an earlier #1 Mk3 as the Front Sights are completely different.  As far as this being a American Problem easily 50% of my sales go to Canada,Europe and Aus. So it's not just an American Problem. Also I am selling about 2-3 a month so there is a market for them. If you have a stock rear sight on your gun the only way to correct windage is by moving the Front Sight,,, Period. Since the 29" Sight Radius results in .008 = 1 MOA Good luck drifting it, and I hope you have plenty of ammo so you can chase it all over the place, and then settle for "Close Enough?". With my tool you can make precise movements of the sight and get it exactly right,,, easily. Front Sights (9 ea.) are available in .015 increments or 2 MOA increments and the intention is to sight the gun in so that the POI is dead on when the rear sight is set at 200 yards which is considered the "Mechanical Zero" for the rifle.. This is done using the known Trajectory of Standard Ball Ammunition The Rear Sight is calibrated to yield the proper "elevation offsets" for that Ammo/Trajectory out to 1200 yards. Change the ammo and everything changes. However if the Windage is dead on at 200 yards it should not change any significant amount thruout the range of the weapon. At that point it is only affected by the Wind which is the most significant "External Factor" in long range shooting. Trajectory is influenced "Primarily" by Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient. Other factors enter in and have been factored in for a long time. The Rear Sight on a 1873 Trapdoor Springfield had the vertical movement actually at a sight angle and not perfectly vertical. This Offset was there to correct for the Coriolis Effect of the earth turning. Unfortunately it only worked in the Northern Hemisphere and only if you were firing south to north.  Point being they've had this stuff figured out for about 200 years now. Hope this helps Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 3:43pm
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Yes, “spin drift” does deflect the bullet as range increases. For the rifles and bullets I shoot, I don’t see it out to 600 yards. But, you will see a difference in RH vs LH twist barrels at 1000 yards, assuming you zeroed for 100 yards and shooting in no cross wind component. That is a handy tool, most certainly for the version of front sight base that does not have the reverse screw to loosen the dovetail.
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Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 4:05pm
britrifles: it will work for them too, you just have to loosen the screw first. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 4:26pm
Actually Parker Hale was the biggest Sporterizer of those guns. I have 2 #4Mk1's and one is a Mk1* Long Branch made in Canada that one had a 2 groove barrel. It now has been rebored to .35-303. The Mk1 was made into a Parker Hale "Standard Sporter" IE: least modified. They got the hand guards removed and the barrels left Full Length which usually meant the barrel had not been ruined by over cleaning. My other gun was a Long Branch #4 Mk1* and was converted to the "Deluxe Sporter" configuration. The barrel was cut back to 22", no doubt to get rid of the abused muzzle crown, a PH Front Sight added, and the fore end got cut back and reshaped. Sling Swivels were also added.  These guns were perfectly serviceable Sporting / Hunting Rifles and were a good value if you got a good one. They were very popular both here and in Canada in the 1950's and were priced at $65 and $75. This was during a pretty serous recession which always seems to follow in the wake of a big war, and people weren't rolling in dough and needed to hunt to put meat on the table. Especially in Canada! Kind of like where we will be pretty soon if things don't get better. Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Stevejo
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 5:45pm
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thanks for the good info. Honestly not sure of the origin of my “sporter” except what it used to be. #1 mk MIII BSA made in 1919 that my grandfather owned and probably paid $11 for. Lol. All I know is that it shoots ridiculously high. Any chance that removing the wood would effect the point of impact in that manner? I’ve had the same issue with mosins and Mausers. Supposedly either the shooting doctrine of the day to “aim at their feet or belt buckle” or the russia doctrine (supposedly) of having the bayonet affixed all the time and the thing being zeroed with it in place. Really not sure about any of that, but I do know the barrel isn’t bent or anything of that nature.
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Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 22 2020 at 12:07am
The ammunition you use has a big effect on POI, not having properly bedded (full length) woodwork, a loose front-trigger-guard screw and many other little features will all affect POI Todays
Interesting Facts – The Effect On POI When A Bayonet Is Fixed Source
: “Musketry
Regulations Part 1” 1909
(With Amendments 1914) Issued
by the General Staff – War Office. Summary : With
a SMLE & with MkVI ammunition there is no effect to the POI when the
bayonet is fixed. With
a SMLE & with MkVII ammunition there is a 4 feet Rise in POI at 600 yds
when the bayonet is fixed. With
a Lee Metford, or CLLE there is a 6 feet drop, and 2 feet to the right change
in the POI at 600 yds when using MkVI ammunition with the bayonet fixed. With
a Lee Metford, or CLLE there is a negligible effect in the POI when using MkVII
ammunition with the bayonet fixed. YES – that is correct –
with the CLLE / Lee Metford the POI is NOT AFFECTED when using MkVII with the
bayonet fixed, but with the SMLE the POI is
NOT AFFECTED when using MkVI with the bayonet fixed..
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Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 22 2020 at 10:52am
Parker Hale also did the same things to #1 Mk3's
 If that gun is shooting that goofy there has to be something wrong. Having the bayonet fixed will only mess with the barrel harmonics. You wouldn't sight the gun in with the bayonet fixed if you expected any normal accuracy from it. I didn't get what ammo you are using but I would suggest a readily available Factory ammo like from SGA Ammo/Privi-Partisan 150 gr. Try for dead on at 200 yards which should be about 1-2" high at 100 yards. If you reload,,, DO NOT Full length Size the cases or will will only get 1-2 reloads before they separate. Neck size only and preferably with a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die which works the brass least of anything out there. The chambers in all Enfield's are "generous" and made that way so they would accept any ammo loaded thruout the Empire. If you full length size it reshaped s the case dramatically. Here's a pic of an un-fired Factory Round and a Reloaded Once Fired Case from my gun.  Once you find a load that shoots decent stick with it. Chasing loads around in a gun like this is pointless. It is what it is just go shoot something with it and have fun. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 6:50pm
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I have to tell you, I love this board. I was shooting my first enfield - Lithgow 1945 No.1 MkIII*. Beautiful condition but at ~100yards I was shooting high right, so I manually adjusted to hit the target. PPU 174 factory. Before I blame the rifle I will shoot it a few more times but this thread was really interesting. Anyway, I am going to put a few rounds down range tomorrow and will revisit this chat when done. I'll try with and without the bayonet. I was wondering - the tool we reviewed - it appears to shift the front sight left or right - what about Up and Down? As said I was High-Right - this tool would adjust the Right, but not the High. I wonder if High is the type of Ammo and lack of Bayonet being used? I'll experiment and see if I can control for "operator error". Also, I guess we have to put ourselves back into the battlefield - while it
is great to hit the #10 circle in 1 inch patterns, a person does tend to
offer a bigger cross section. Maybe 4" in just fine for a battle rifle. I'm not sure if
this is flawed logic as I never served. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: WilliamS
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 9:58pm
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Your lowest setting on the No1 rear sight is 200 yards, so you should be hitting high at 100 yards if you are properly zeroed. If you are still high (or low) at 200 yards, the front sight blade would be swapped for a different height to correct. There's a number of them in 0.015" increments.
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Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 11:29pm
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Windage corrections are made by pushing the front sight right or left using a tool like the BPM one. One flat on the bolt head = .006 movement. .008 = 1 MOA with the Enfield Sight Radius. So close enough. Elevation corrections at Mechanical Zero are carried out by changing the front sight to one of 9 different ones available. These are made in .015 increments which equates to a 2 MOA jump for each different blade. To properly zero the gun you would set the rear sight to 200 yards and then shoot it at 200 yards. If you are dead on you have achieved what is known as "Mechanical Zero" and the trajectory should follow the yardage marks on the rear sight. However that rear sight is calibrated for the velocity/trajectory of whatever "Ball Ammo" was being used. If the round is slower it will be off on the low side or you would have to compensate by shooting higher. Once you have your mechanical zero make sure to record what ammo you used for future use. Typically you would want to use the fastest ammo available to you as Heavier bullets will require only Positive Elevation changes and there isn't really a convenient way to do negative elevation changes. It should be noted that all guns need to be sighted in this same way IE: Establishing a Mechanical Zero with the fastest Ammo you would normally shoot, and then recording the elevation offsets for other types of ammo at different ranges. You always reset you sights to Mechanical Zero after shooting so you always know exactly where the gun is going to shoot next time out. Hope this helps to further the understanding of this sighting system. Randy ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 6:40am
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thanks Randy. These instructions are excellent and very helpful. As I was wondering how to zero on the rifle. Currently I only have access to a 100 yd range but will search for. 200 in my area. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 7:11am
This makes sense WS. I also need to measure the distance of our range as we are all just estimating the range. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 8:15am
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You could also use this "ladder target". just print it out at "exact size & aim at the bottom flat of the "bull". depending on where you're actually sighted for YOUR ammo & rifle you can make adjustments.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 8:16am
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Here it is dimensioned in case you want to make one with felt markers or something.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 8:26am
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Just to clarify. The sighting target above is used at 25 yards. It actually works well. I used this method for my first ever competition at 200 metres. my local range is only 50 metres and at that time I'd never had the opportunity to shoot a longer distance. So I set the rifle to 200; it was good on the 25 test target and correct when set to 400 yards as well. It was nicely on the target at the 200 metre range (220 yards) for the competition. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 8:27am
Yes 25 yards, sorry I should have mentioned that "little detail"
 ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 10:56am
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These are common numbers when sighting in Battle Rifles. On AR's the 25 yard POA/POI should yield a 100 yard zero and 50 yard POA/POI a 200 yard zero. However they need to be verified at the longer range to correct for minor deviations not seen at the closer range. All of the common military cartridges produce very similar trajectories. As such I use the same offsets for .303, .308 .30-06 etc. The actual "Differences" in POI are minimal when shooting at a man sized target, which as we all know the intended purpose of said firearms This brings us to "Point Blank Range." "Point-blank range is any distance over which a certain firearm can hit a target without the need to compensate for bullet drop." (Wikipedia) Typically a Battle Rifle is sighted in with a Mechanical Zero or Base Zero in the vacinity of the Point Blank Range of the firearm. Point Blank Range for an Enfield is between 250-300 yards. With a 200 yard zero my gun will be 12" below POA at 300, same numbers are true for my .308 Scout Rifle and .30-06 rifles. all of which are sighted at 200 yards. Correcting the sights for 300M/ 330 yards requires a +4MOA offset. 385M/420 yards is +7.5MOA and 500M/550 yards is +12.75MOA. The difference between 200M and 200 yards is .5 MOA or 1" so I don't change the sights for that range. It should be noted that these offsets are the same if using a Lyman or Redfield Receiver type sight or an Optic and all of these offsets have been verified at all the different ranges many times. Optimally you would want to shoot your gun at all the various ranges 200,300,400,500,600,800,1000 M or yards to verify your trajectory out to the farthest distance you would possibly shoot. Obviously this requires a place to do it and that is where most fall behind. I am blessed with a 600 yard range at my club which is located at a defunct WWII Navy Training Facility just north of Ojai CA. My .223 Carbines also follow the same basic Trajectory and are sighted in at 200 yards with their Red Dot Sights. they are 12" low at 300 so holding on the head of a man sized target will yield a hit Center Mass. I might add that this is not very hard to do off a rest. I can hit a man sized target every single time at 200 yards off a rest and about 8/10 at 300 depending on the wind. My point here is that all of these guns are sighted in exactly the same way because the Trajectories of their bullets are nearly Identical. Trajectory can be calculated by any of the numerous Computerized Ballistic Programs available by simply knowing the Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient of the ammo you are using. This is what I did originally and was amazed that the bullets followed the trajectory given like they were on a string! Your's will too! That said, I have other guns which require different settings. My .22's all are sighted in dead on at 75 yards. this yields 1" high at 50 yards and 3" low at 100. My PC Carbine in .40 S&W is sighted the same way and works well using the same holdovers. So I hope this furthers the understanding of of this discipline. Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 11:58am
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Exactly. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: SGonger
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 1:42pm
I heard (was told a tidbit) & read the Canuck’s used 30yds for some particular reason instead of the 25yd zeroing in.
------------- Anyone seen the Tardis Box anywhere? 🤨 |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 2:11pm
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30 yds is 25 meters maybe? Well, almost, 27! ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 4:21pm
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The primary reason for the 25 yard distance is that many Schools have found that most people can't shoot well enough beyond 25 yards to be effective. Just learning how to index your front sight on the target the same way every time is a skill unto itself. Here is a pic of a group I shot while re-sighting in my Mini 14 after moving the optic. this was shot at 100 yards with a Red Dot sight with a 3 MOA Dot IE: 3" dia. I was holding the edge of the dot on the left point of the diamond. The elevation was perfect at @1" high at 100 for a 200 yard zero. The windage was about 1" to the right of perfect, but close enough, as I figured I'd quit while ahead. I was taught how to index the dot this way only a few months earlier. I was also taught what types of targets to use and how to index the Front Sight of a Rifle or Handgun or Shotgun with sights on those targets to get repeatable results. No one is born knowing this stuff. You have to be taught. Then you have to practice! Randy  ------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 7:40pm
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And I'm impressed but stuck with 1K of mid 1970s bright HXP. MY RELOADS work good at 600 yards .Then the short course ,150g Game Kings and 4895 are OK too. I don't do supports other than my ruck or a sock full of rice or beans. I'm just a simple soildier. My training was MOC and it was a rich environment. Thanks for all the data. ------------- The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 22 2021 at 6:07am
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Plus there used to be an outdoor 25 yd range on every base & airfield for the most part. Location, location, location!  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 22 2021 at 12:56pm
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Good explanations Randy. It's good to see you back here! it's been a while! Zed. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 22 2021 at 1:51pm
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I'm unfamiliar with the "MOC" TLA, what is it? Oh & we're just kidding its a nice rifle. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 22 2021 at 7:09pm
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Well,
I have bad news, really bad news, and bloody fantastic news. Which
do you want first?
OK.
The bad news. My shooting today was terrible and I am not even going to
post my target. I fully agree with Randy that shooting beyond 25 yards
appears to be a challenge, at least for some of us. The
really bad news is I can't blame the Enfield. I did the same with my
Winchester 94 .22WMR. High and Right. So, this appears operator
error and I need to determine what I am doing wrong. However, see below... ...the
bloody fantastic news. I have plenty of ammo and look forward to lots of
practice! Hey, I'm an optimist, silver lining, lemonade type of
guy! I attached a video - one my mate took and one on my iphone at full zoom...first shows the beautiful ping of a direct hit at
110yd, the second a [near??] miss. There is hope yet! Also, I got my
ammo specs wrong in an earlier post. I
was shooting 150gr and 180gr PPU, not 174 as previously stated. I saw no real difference between the two. All seriousness, before I make any adjustments I need to practice a little more so we can be better informed, and I will definitely try the 25 yard targets- this is something I think even I can do (OK, you can stop laughing now!) Seriously, amazing insight and knowledge, thank you for sharing. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 4:36am
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When shooting off your elbows with no artificial support under the rifle, use of a sling makes a big difference. First, it pulls the rifle into your shoulder which will in time eliminate flinching. Second is that it steadies the rifle considerably and allows you to minimize muscle induced movement of the rifle. In the US, NRA and CMP Rules don’t allow use of a sling in standing position, but everyone uses slings in sitting and prone position. Find yourself a US 1903 sling, they are not that expensive. Lots of information online on how to rig it and how to use it properly. If you have a mat, start in the prone position, it is the most stable. To shoot well, you must find your “Natural Point of Aim”, that is when you are the most relaxed with no muscle input to hold the rifle. To find your NPOA, get into position and align the sights on the target, then close your shooting eye, try to completely relax for at least 5 seconds, then open your eye. If the sights are not aligned, you do not have your NPOA. Keeping your left elbow (right elbow for left hand shooters) planted (don’t move it), pivot your body left or right around your elbow to correct lateral alignment and forward and back to correct elevation. Repeat this until you have found your NPOA. Finding your NPOA is a critical step for accurate shooting. There are other steps, but this is probably the most important fundamental of accurate shooting. Muscling the rifle into position for sight alignment will never give good repeatable results. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 6:32am
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From your video, a couple of pointers if I may. You "figet" with the 2 stage trigger. Instead try slow steady pressure, hold at the end of stage 2 final aim hold breath & squeeze, don't jerk it. Hold the wood forend, not the magazine box. Get you elbow DIRECTLY under the rifle, not offset & leaning. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 7:13am
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BritRifles is spot on, very good advice, to add, try resting the fore arm on a rest (an actual adjustable type rest, or a Rucksack, etc, butt in shoulder, trigger finger hand grasping the wrist, and your other hand grabbing the sling at the rear swivel, this is more comfortable on a bench, but can work in prone as well that will help you with a really steady way to get sighted in , if you prefer not to strap up in a sling NM style, a hasty sling (google, you basically use a semi tight sling and tighen it up by dropping your elbow thru it) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 7:29am
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Once you learn how to hold the rifle with minimum movement and find your NPOA, learning how to release the trigger with absolute minimum movement of the rifle (and follow through) is the next most important step. This is where dry firing is invaluable. Watch the front sight for any movement as you release the striker. Considerable movement can occur while the striker is moving forward and the primer ignites the powder and bullet travels down the barrel, particularly if you develop a habit of flinching. This is why follow through is so important. I usually take up the first stage trigger pressure as I’m breathing, the sights should only move vertically while you are breathing. If the front sight moves diagonally, you have not got your support hand elbow directly under the rifle. Pause your breathing at about 1/2 your lung capacity. When you recognize you have the correct sight alignment on the target while holding your breath, slowly increase trigger pressure as Sham described until you break the shot. As you gain skill, you can be more deliberate in releasing the trigger which is necessary for shooting in the standing position. In prone, you place your support hand elbow as far forward as you can and directly under the rifle as Sham said. Use a good tight sling to pull the rifle into the shoulder. Your rifle should stay in your shoulder with your trigger hand not holding the rifle. The trigger hand has a moderately firm grip, like a handshake. With a sling, it will not be necessary to pull the rifle into your shoulder with your trigger hand. Shooting can be very addictive, once you start down this path and improve, it just makes you want to shoot more. I highly recommend new shooters enroll in an Project Appleseed Clinic if you live in the US. They will teach you the basics of rifle shooting. It’s best to start with a .22 as this prevents developing a flinching habit. |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 8:11am
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Excellent feedback and advice. I posted the video anticipating some critique and really appreciate the advice and the fact you took the time to review the video. Huge THANK YOU. There is a lot to remember here, so be patient as I try to implement and practice your tips and best practices. I have largely hunted birds and shot a 12 gauge for the past 20 years, and this is my first entry back into rifles since the high school cadets. I have never header of Project Appleseed but will research this - I am a believer in training - self teaching is great, but a small amount of professional advice and training can go a long way. I recently acquired an Australian commemorative 22 WMR and am looking for a Henry 22LR (22LR remain affordable, if you can find them) so these should be a suitable to establish some good practices. My past post was a little in jest, but I am truly looking forward to the practice. regards, ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 10:02am
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Project Appleseed helped me immensely to get started with the basic principles of shooting. The object is to get you to shoot as an Expert Rifleman by the end of the two days. It takes some shooters a few clinics to obtain their rifleman badge. Getting your Expert Rifleman badge is not the end of your training, it is the end of the beginning of your training to develop your shooting skills. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 11:51am
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Shotgun & rifle techniques are very different. You'll get there. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 11:59am
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Excellent advice from Britrifles. Shooting a .22 rifle at 50 yards is great practice. The ammo is dirt cheap and you won't develop a recoil flinch; which can happen with the large calibre rifles; as it can with a shot gun too. You can probably shoot around 200 rounds of .22 for the price of 25 rounds of .303 If you have an Enfield in .22 you even get the same sight picture and trigger pull. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 1:20pm
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I researched Appleseed at lunch and really like the program. IL has a few options but neighboring WI has a bunch of courses scheduled. I will definitely register. Understand it Mt is the begging of skills development. Duly noted! Zed, you are a genius. I didn’t think of a 22 enfield. Back to the sale boards I go...if anyone has a surplus Australian 22 enfield I would be interested.... ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 1:35pm
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Use the "Regimental Oath". Hold your wallet open at arms length & say: "Help yourself!  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 1:57pm
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O.K. you have to be a Goon Show fan to get that one. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 23 2021 at 3:39pm
Be aware that there are rapid fire stages in the Appleseed program with magazine changes. They teach four positions: Standing Slow Fire, Sitting Rapid Fire, Prone Rapid Fire and Prone Slow Fire. A great rifle to learn on is a Ruger 10-22, but any magazine fed .22 can be used. A semi-auto does make it easier to learn the rapid stages as it gives you more time to concentrate on the fundamentals. The principles you learn can be applied to any rifle, and certainly a Lee Enfield. Your first clinic will be at 25 yards with progressively smaller targets as you work through the 4 stages. Once you qualify as a Rifleman, you can then take a Known Distance Clinic, these are typically at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards through the 4 stages. I also took an Appleseed Unknown Distance Clinic which teaches you how to estimate range and then shoot on targets that are at an unknown distance out to 500 yards. I took 5 or 6 Appleseed Clinics, all three I described above. I qualified Rifleman on my first .22 25 yard clinic, but I learned so much on that first Clinic, I signed up for another 25 yard clinic just to soak up a bit more information and ask questions. I was fortunate to have exceptionally good instructors. I then did an Known Distance clinic and worked to get a score of 50/50 which I did with my AR. I thought after that, I knew how to shoot, but I later realized at that point I was just a novice, there was much much more to learn, and that journey began when I started competing in CMP Matches (with the M1 and Vintage Military Rifle Matches which I used my No. 4). After 5 years, I’ve slowly climbed up the latter and now routinely shoot a Gold Medal score in the CMP Games matches and usually place in the top 3, sometimes will win. I thought, now I know how to shoot. Then I entered NRA and CMP Hi Power Service Rifle Matches and realized I was wrong again. Those guys who are at the top of that game are incredibly good shooters. They include serving members of the Army Marksmanship Units (AMUs) and other military service professional rifle team members, and some are serving Snipers. So, I’ve been working my way up that latter since last year. I’m now just able to score a CMP Master classification, but I would like to get to High Master which requires a 98/100 average score in the CMP Service Rifle National Match course (200 Yds Standing Slow Fire, 200 Yards Sitting Rapid Fire, 300 Yards Prone Rapid Fire and 600 Yards Prone Slow Fire). The last match I shot in I was just 1 point (out of 800) from a High Master score, that is I shot a 783 out of 800. Each of the four stages has its own challenges, which is what makes it so interesting. And if I sought out the next level, what ever that is (Olympic?) I would realize that I’m just a novice shooter. This is a journey, and for me, it all started with my first Project Appleseed Clinic about 10 years ago. |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 12:29pm
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Expect to pay more for an Enfield .22 trainer than for a .303. But they are continuing to increase in price, so a good investment; plus I think it's impossible to wear out the barrels. I have 4x Lee Enfield .22's; they are just so much fun and also generally very accurate. They are mostly single shot; which is s light disadvantage in competition if shooting against the Mas45 for example, that has a magazine. They are probably more difficult to find in the USA. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 2:22pm
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AussieShooter. I converted a No4Mk1* Long Branch to .22LR. It is a single shot with a loading platform in the magazine. It has a Parker Hale PH5C rear target sight with Gehmann optics and a Parker Hale PH1 front globe sight with various inserts that are kept in a brass holder that is inletted into the buttstock. It also has a Bisley palm swell and bipod attached. I might consider parting with it...
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 4:05pm
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this reminds me again of both my charnwood and one of my Cno7s i once had that were fitted with the bipods - they shot wee and might have been interesting discussion had i kept them , i did not - trading fodder for thors i really wanted in the collection as im not the shooter some of you are , in hind sight , i might ;like to have them back to retire with - word to the wise , dont part with things hastily as you may one day regret them being gone , there are many things i now regret but we have to get over them , life choices are always hard but in the end if you make them wisely and at the right time you can reflect on what you did and still smile - im smiling every day ,
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Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 5:39pm
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True words, A Square! I used to regret having sold my muscle cars I had, like 8 of them in all. Couldn't keep them and haul them around when moving from house to house with my young family in tow. Sold them, regretted it but then I grew up and got old and found out I did the right thing. I still have some engines I just couldn't part with and those are now worth their weight in gold. ------------- Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 14 2021 at 6:14am
Great news...I found a good deal on a used Ruger 10/22 and it should arrive to my FFL later this week. There are several Appleseeds in late July/August and if the work and family schedule allows I will enroll for the traditional two day workshop. I am very excited, and look forward to the day I can proudly post my targets on the virtual shoot page! Right now, not so much :) As a side note, most used Ruger 10/22 are selling for basically the same cost as a new Ruger 10/22 if you factor in postage, and if you can find the new rifle. The seller of my rifle said he was surprised it took so long to sell (1 week)! I'll update again after the event! Thanks for all the advice. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: August 17 2021 at 11:18am
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I had to defer my Appleseed for business/family reasons. Just too busy in the summer. However I did get my 10/22 and have taken it to the range for a few rounds and familiarity. I really like the rifle and see why it is so popular with shooters. My Ruger came with a Simmons scope which I have not yet attached. My question is should I learn with the scope, iron sights, or something in between such as Tech Sites? I read an article written by someone experienced attending an Appleseed event and they recommend the Tech Site. My shooting with the iron sites is not very good, so sights are probably required. Thanks for chiming in. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: August 17 2021 at 12:31pm
 Tech Sights are nothing more than higher quality Iron Sights. IMHO they are not needed on a 10/22 because the stock sights are good enough and after learning how to use them you will be better off. PS They are most likely "dead on" from the Factory,,, at least all the Ruger guns I've had were dead on from the factory.On my 10/22 I mounted a Bushnell TRS 25 Red Dot Sight (@$65-90 on line) and that is the easiest Sighting System to use there is. You put the Dot on the Target and pull the Trigger. Also this 3 oz sight doesn't affect the Quick Handling of the gun in any way.  You can probably sell that Simmons Scope for enough to pay for the Red Dot Sight.  Here's a pic of my gun Hope this helps. Randy
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: August 20 2021 at 4:28pm
hi Randy. Thanks for the overview of options. I was tending to do the Appleseed with the iron sights as a way to force me to learn to shoot well. I believe the initial range is 25 yards and I can still see we’ll enough at this distance.  Great tip on the red dot and that seems like a fair price. This might be off topic, but do you have a recommendation on a scope/sight for a shot gun and deer season? Would that red dot be suitable also?? ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: August 20 2021 at 5:17pm
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Some place in one of my boxes I have an original #5 pusher with the two wing screws. Bought it on a lark but never used it so it got packed up. I'm away from my home PC for a time but I will post it at some time. Because of the #5 flash conebit won't work on any other Enfield. .. ..------------- The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are |
Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: August 21 2021 at 12:53am
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Your range with a shotgun is going to be >100 yards so yes a Red dot would work fine for a shotgun. Do make sure your barrel has a Cantilever Scope mounting rail because mounting it on the Receiver will change the Point of Impact everytime you fire the gun. Looser Barrel to Receiver fit usually doesn't yield a Solid and repeatable interface. With one mounted to the barrel you'll be fine as the sight moves with the barrel.. Randy.
------------- It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do. |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 3:57pm
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Thanks Randy. It does have a cantilever mounting rail. Have a great weekend. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |