Print Page | Close Window

Enfield Recoil Lug

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Gunsmithing
Forum Description: Submit any how-to's or other gunsmithing suggestions here.
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8768
Printed Date: December 12 2018 at 11:36pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Enfield Recoil Lug
Posted By: Macd
Subject: Enfield Recoil Lug
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 2:17pm
I floated the barrel of my Parker Hale Sporter.  Usually I reinforce the stock recoil lug recess and under the front of the receiver with epoxy but on looking at the Enfield I realized it doesn't really have much a recoil lug like most other rifles.  I called a good friend who does a bit of stock work as a sideline for some advice on another rifle.  As an aside topic, I asked him what part of theEnfield stock takes the energy of the recoil, he laughed, and said your shoulder.  That explains a lot LOL.



Replies:
Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 2:37pm
On an Enfield, there is an area of the foreend that is critical to proper accuracy and longevity of the wood. The "draws" area, where a portion of the receiver fits tight against the wood, is important. If not fitted properly your rifle will pattern like a shotgun. You can also shatter the wood if the fit is way off.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 2:39pm
Funny!!! It is a pretty tame round compared to some of the beasts people hunt with. I even found the No5 I used to own much nicer to shoot than a buddies .270 Remington pump.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 13 2018 at 3:01pm

The main thing here to remember is that,even with a shortened stock to always follow these instructions.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 5:12am
Its one of the major differences caused by the 2-piece stock.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

On an Enfield, there is an area of the foreend that is critical to proper accuracy and longevity of the wood. The "draws" area, where a portion of the receiver fits tight against the wood, is important. If not fitted properly your rifle will pattern like a shotgun. You can also shatter the wood if the fit is way off.


Thank you for your concern.  This rifle is a sporter and there is already very little barrel contact with the forestock.  The contact that exists is not consistent hence the need to reduce it to zero.  My other option was to enlarge the barrel channel but I don't care for removing wood if I can avoid it.  Here is a picture of the modification.  Picture is from another forum that is moderated by a well known US shooter and bullet designer.  It originally came from Australia.   Those light areas are cork strips.
Image

The receiver has very good contact with the wood but I will add some epoxy tape to take up any gaps created by the modification.  I do not float barrels on full stocked rifles.  The one exception is my K31 which I modified on advice from a knowledgeable member on a Swiss rifles forum.  It did make a discernible difference in accuracy.  Here is his article.

http://swissrifles.com/sr/pierre/accurizing.html

I have owned rifles with two piece stocks before, both Enfields and assorted lever action rifles and a few break open ones.   I have never really paid much attention to the wood as I do on one piece stocked rifles.  This is therefore pretty new to me and I appreciate any and all comments.



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 1:48pm
Basically the L-E bedding is a pivot about the main mounting bolt in front of the magazine well. The internal sleeve acts as a stop to the (controlled) crush fit of the wood at that point.
If you see a sectioned action & stock you can see the 2 sets of angled planes that are pushed into contact by the teeter-totter arrangement. The differing angles also form a "V notch" to pull everything together fore & aft. The "perfect bedding is tilted at just the right angle just as the 2 wedges both mate firmly. Barrel contact i a full-stocked one is minimal, just the rear BDC of the breech end & a small BDC one at the forend near the muzzle. Everything else free floats. One of the commonest (& most irritating to remedy) is when you have everything set up with the stock open then, as you tighten the handguards, they push down somewhere messing it all up! But of course it only happens after assembly when  you can't see it because its assembled!


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Basically the L-E bedding is a pivot about the main mounting bolt in front of the magazine well. The internal sleeve acts as a stop to the (controlled) crush fit of the wood at that point.
If you see a sectioned action & stock you can see the 2 sets of angled planes that are pushed into contact by the teeter-totter arrangement. The differing angles also form a "V notch" to pull everything together fore & aft. The "perfect bedding is tilted at just the right angle just as the 2 wedges both mate firmly. Barrel contact i a full-stocked one is minimal, just the rear BDC of the breech end & a small BDC one at the forend near the muzzle. Everything else free floats. One of the commonest (& most irritating to remedy) is when you have everything set up with the stock open then, as you tighten the handguards, they push down somewhere messing it all up! But of course it only happens after assembly when  you can't see it because its assembled!


Thanks Shamu. It all is going into the CPU between my ears.  I am old so it is an 8088 chip. Preloading the front of a barrel on full stocked rifles is the normal practice.  In a perfect world it works but wood is not a stable material so external conditions will cause it to alter that preloading pressure.  Also as you shoot the barrel heats up and changes in dimension again changing the amount of pressure.  Military stocks were not always chosen for their straight grain and any cabinet maker will tell you that even quality lumber, though kiln dried with care, will twist slightly when exposed to damp conditions.  Does this make a difference in shot to shot and day to day accuracy.  I really don't know.  Removing the preloading on my K31 gave a positive result.  My M96 Mauser shoots like a laser without changing the preloading.  It is illustrative however that the Swedes free floated M96 actions with new target barrels in the CG63 and CG80 match rifles.  I have a CG63 and it can shoot better than I can see through the dioper sights.  An interesting experiment would be to shoot an Enfield from a stable shooting rest with identical loads with and without a forestock.  The rifle would be supported by the magzine.  I wonder if you would actually see a change in accuracy or POI.

Gossic, I am studying that information pretty carefully.   Thanks for posting.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 7:33pm
The guys over at Enfield found out that without proper bedding done,the rifle had a nasty tendency to spread the shots out horizontally. The results of barrel whip. When it comes to stocking up an Enfield,it's best left to following what has been established when the rifle was built. Even with a sporter stock,you maintain the same bedding procedures.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 14 2018 at 7:37pm
The second photo illustrates the Center bedding procedure. This is the same stocking up method done at Holland and Holland when they were turning out the sniper rifles. Just an FYI on that one...


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 4:17am
I know from personal experience that badly fitted wood can make a huge difference it accuray. Particularly with the No1MkIII because the barrel is thinner than the No4 rifle. My No1 rifle had new old stock replacement wood; let's say it was attached to the rifle! because the word "fitted" would indicate a proper job!
It shot around 12 MOA at first test! About 50% of the error was the poor muzzle wear on the barrel.
With a NOS barrel fitted it shot closer to 6 or 7 MOA.
investigation should poor contact at the draws; causing the barrel to sit off centre in the fore end. Also some unwanted contact between wood and barrel in the channel. Add to that poor nose cap fit etc.
Started from the rear end; adjusted the draws with brass shims to centre the barrel and get a tight fit at the wrist as well. Then corrected the contact at the knox form; ensured good trigger guard fit and trigger function. Then removed the unwanted interrefence in the channel and set up the nose cap.
It now shoots 2MOA which is OK for a standard bedding on a No1.
the only issue I have is the POI moves vertically when the rifle heats up; when shooting service rifle competitions; depending how long between the two targets (for scoring/patching) it has caused me some issues.
I have not had time to extensively test the rifle to work out the exct change and compensate depending on barrel temp and ambient temp etc


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 6:08am
I can confirm what ZED says. I had a No5 with a terribly bedded (I use the term loosely) forend. It was 18" off & made a 20" pattern, I wouldn't call it a group, at 100 yds.
I restocked it as a sporter & now its grouping about 4" and shoots to point of aim. Interestingly I decided to free float all but the first 1.5". The logic being that I could always easily build up or shim the front of the stock if free floating didn't do the job.
The same applies with center bedding, fix the regular bedding FIRST, then try the center bedding to gain that last bit of improvement if needed.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 15 2018 at 10:43am
As MacD first pointed out, there is not much of a "recoil lug" for the fore-end.  I would think the recoil is taken by the butt stock.  Seems like the fore-end goes along for the ride; but is very important for dampening barrel vibration (i.e. accuracy).  My No.4 is centre bedded; and relieved at the muzzle.  I have not experienced any POI shift as it heats up, even after several stages of rapid fire, then back to slow fire. 
 
For years I always loosened the trigger guard screw after shooting.  It didn't change POI after loosening/tightening, but lately I've been leaving it tight.  I can tell you that a loose trigger guard screw is quickly realized after a few shots.   Not sure if leaving the screw tight will eventually deform the wood and relieve the barrel preload.   


Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 9:16am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

As MacD first pointed out, there is not much of a "recoil lug" for the fore-end.  I would think the recoil is taken by the butt stock.  Seems like the fore-end goes along for the ride; but is very important for dampening barrel vibration (i.e. accuracy).  My No.4 is centre bedded; and relieved at the muzzle.  I have not experienced any POI shift as it heats up, even after several stages of rapid fire, then back to slow fire. 
 
For years I always loosened the trigger guard screw after shooting.  It didn't change POI after loosening/tightening, but lately I've been leaving it tight.  I can tell you that a loose trigger guard screw is quickly realized after a few shots.   Not sure if leaving the screw tight will eventually deform the wood and relieve the barrel preload.   


Thanks more good info.  By "Centre bedded"  do you mean the receiver only or do you include the first 1 to 1.5 inches of barrel.  As soon as I get some contact marking paste I will be checking stock contact of the stock with barrel and receiver.   Free floated barrels "whip" but mine all are as accurate as I can expect and some are very accurate.   I hear what you say and my own experience concurs with your observations with the stock screw(s).  Of course I am more accustomed to two screws on one piece stocks.  There the trick is getting proper adjustment for each screw.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 10:18am
The shifting POI vertically as it heats up is with my No1MkIII*. I do not have that problem with my No4 rifles; one standard and one fultons regulated (centre bedded). This is probably because the No4 barrel is stronger than the No1. Centre bedding is shown in the diagram posted by Goosic on the right hand page.

-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 16 2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

The shifting POI vertically as it heats up is with my No1MkIII*. I do not have that problem with my No4 rifles; one standard and one fultons regulated (centre bedded). This is probably because the No4 barrel is stronger than the No1. Centre bedding is shown in the diagram posted by Goosic on the right hand page.
 
Zed, is your Fulton regulated No. 4 more accurate than any of your other LE's?  I don't have much to compare it with.   My only other LE is a No. 4 7.62 conversion (service weight barrel) that was accurized by Dave Reynolds (RCAF SQN LDR) many years ago, and it shoots just as good as the Fulton regulated .303 with 168 gr. SMK handloads.
 
Yes, the Centre bedding is a barrel bearing support between the aft two milled out pockets of the fore-end just forward of the chamber. 
 
 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 1:42pm
The Fulton's No4 shoots well; but I don't know if it's a good as when it as modified. That could have been 40 years ago! it's probably a better shot than I am though.
I have only recently acquired my second No4 mk1 and have not shot it enough for a full evaluation. However it seem's as good as the Fulton's with factory PPU ammo. But this standard rifle is in amazingly good condition; having been properly stored for 70 years. 


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 18 2018 at 7:16pm
I suspect my Fulton No.4 has lost much of its preload on the barrel, it was done in 1963; 55 years ago.   The rifle had never been fired except for the test group by Fulton until I got it from my Dad in the mid ‘90s.   Dad remembered that the test target was in the rifle box it came in, but we couldn't find it. Would be interesting to see how it grouped at that time.  
I don’t remember if the trigger guard screw was tight when I got the rifle. I thought about shimming the barrel Fore-end bearing support to increase the barrel upward pressure. On my 7.62 No. 4, I added a thin shim between the bearing and barrel to increase pressure and it seemed to work well. 
 
 


Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: February 20 2018 at 6:00pm
Thanks everyone for your advice.  I decided on the centre bedding as suggested.  I used cork that has an adhesive backing.  I now have 12mm of barrel-stock gap from the cork to the front of the stock.  The stock screw is down tight on the steel collar insert.   This puts a fair amount of preloading on the centre of the barrel.  The receiver has full contact.  Hopefully nothing splinters.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net