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Serial number identification

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Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9336
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 2:59am
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Topic: Serial number identification
Posted By: Andy s
Subject: Serial number identification
Date Posted: November 12 2018 at 2:54pm
hi,
I’ve just purchased a 1942 stamped Lee Enfield rifle which has a number 93L8939.
I assume it’s a Canadian longbrance, but I am a bit confused as a web post puts this serial number around 1950?
Also the number on the receiver has been ground off.
Can any one help with identifying this rifle?



Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 12 2018 at 7:12pm
that serial is definetly a longbranch range , and not an early one , longbranch did make rifles from 48-56 , my records show 1944 production was 58L to 84L , 42 was 1L to 20L so that is out , i show 1950 production in the 91L to 95L range that looks to be correct , 

for the rest of the story you need to post some really good photos , there is a question or two that jump to mind but ill leave those to the more knowledgeable among us , 


Posted By: Andy s
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 1:30am
here are a few pics that might help you.












Posted By: Andy s
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 9:05am


Posted By: Andy s
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 11:02am
can anyone help with solving the question of dates and serial numbers not adding up?
Serial number is of 1950s and date stamped 1942?
Any ideas please?


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 12:35pm
The year is fake. Plain and simple. Original Long Branch years are on the left sidewall of the receiver. Your rifle had the left sidewall ground down, quite roughly in spots. The "year" is stamped in a non-matching font and the metal work looks to have been refinished. It looks more of a case of someone trying to make it out to be something it is not.


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 12:42pm
I agree with Bear43.

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Andy s
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 12:54pm
that’s what I thought. Thanks for all you answers.


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 1:26pm
That is.... if the 1942 denotes year. Could it be some other sequential number? Rack number?, club inventory number?



This Martini Enfield artillery carbine has a number that would suggest a date of 1909, perhaps when the carbine was made drill purpose?

Nope!


The rest of the story is that this carbine was accepted into New Zealand service in 1899 and was assigned inventory number 1909. The carbine subsequently was down graded to Reserve (2nd class) status and eventually made into a Drill Purpose arm.

Just saying that here is an instance where a number was mistaken as a date. Maybe something similar is going on with the No.4?


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 1:46pm
Possible, sure. We cannot say for certain it is a year, nor can we say for certain much of anything else about that number. All we can go by is the serial number. But here is the thing, that number on that No 4 is stamped in an area where some manufacturers stamped the year it was made. That is a red flag to me.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 13 2018 at 6:59pm
bear - am i not seeing 1949 ? the bolt was replaced 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 14 2018 at 4:30am
Odd that the left side has been scrubbed and no FTR marks. Also non  macthing bolt is a concern.
That needs inspecting for proper fit at the recoil lugs. The original bolt would be proofed to 18 ton's per square inch of pressure. I suggest if you bolt has not been proofed with the rifle; get it checked for fit and a new proof.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 14 2018 at 6:38am
A_square, I thought that at first as well, but that last number looks open at the top to me. It's not stamped all that well so that doesn't help.


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 14 2018 at 7:24am
Numbers and markings on rifles, I find fascinating. It is like detective work trying to figure out the clues. Yes, I know, I should get out more!

I do remember reading something by Peter Laidler, so forgive me if I dont recall it correctly. I cant seem to find his posting right now, but it might help explain things. 

Often he would be given a batch of rifles to refurb. The whole nine yards including refinish to produce what would in effect be a brand new rifle.. 

Some  rifles (such as LongBranch) had very finely marked serial numbers done with an engraving pen on the receiver wall. Often the serial number would be obscured by the Suncorite when refinished, so it was practice to restamp the serial onto the left wrist socket.

The same six serials were used on the six rifles, but not necessarily applied to the exact same ones. So it is possible to have a Long Branch serial applied to a Maltby, or a Maltby serial applied to a Faz. This puts collectors into a spin trying to figure it out and fake is called!.

Perhaps this is how the 1950s serial got onto a 1942 rifle?


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 14 2018 at 11:03am
If it's a 1942,it will more likely then not,have the rear release tab for the bolt. If it has the cutout toward the barrel knox,after 1942.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 14 2018 at 5:31pm
good point on the longbranch but the maltby not so much , interesting thought line englishman - i know peter has been a wealth of knowledge and much life experience 


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 9:22am
Good morning.
 I have a Lee Enfield, marked: 42L5162. could you tell me what year 42L corresponds to. 
THANKS.



Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 10:43am
Where did you find this Enfield?

I think it is 1942.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 10:45am
In a field 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Lee enfield 303 Lee enfield 303 wrote:

Good morning.
 I have a Lee Enfield, marked: 42L5162. could you tell me what year 42L corresponds to. 
THANKS.

It was made by the fine folk at Long Branch. 1943 or 1944 i am assuming...


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 10:55am
ha thank you. how can you say that? from the letter L? THANKS


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 11:01am
And can you tell me what means « fine folk » ? I am French


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 12:10pm
42L5162 is the serial number.  The L stamp means that the people at the Long Branch facility in Canada made the rifle originally.  Possibly in 1943. Where did you find the rifle?...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 12:21pm
The No4Mk1 was made by 5 manufacturers.  Maltby,  Fazakerley, BSA Shirley,  Long Branch and Savage.  Typically, a serial number starting with a 1 would indicate that it was made at the Maltby Factory.  A serial number starting with a 2 would indicate a Fazakerley made No4Mk1.  BSA Shirley had a serial number starting with a 3. Savage No4Mk1 rifles had a C in the serial number to indicate the Chicopee Falls Massachusetts facility. My Savage No4Mk1* serial number is 73C2642.  The Canadian made No4Mk1* had a L in the serial number in indicate the Long Branch Canada facility production.  My Long Branch No4Mk1* serial number is 1L5880 and was possibly made in very late 1942 or very early 1943...


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 1:02pm
Might need a bit of TLC...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

Might need a bit of TLC...
Mild dishwashing detergent and a brillo pad should do the trick...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 23 2023 at 5:16pm
Yeah, that should buff out…then a bit of oil.

Seriously, it does look like it’s been buried in a field since 1944.  


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 11:53am
Thank you for your help and documentation. I electrolyzed it. and it is indeed a long branch manufacture, a new marking has appeared:


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 11:58am


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Lee enfield 303 Lee enfield 303 wrote:

Thank you for your help and documentation. I electrolyzed it. and it is indeed a long branch manufacture, a new marking has appeared:
I am very curious about where you specifically found it, "What area of France" but, I am more curious to know if there is a loaded round still in the chamber? The cocking piece is in the ready position.  A detective would assume that the original user was getting ready to fire the rifle and was unfortunately dispatched prior to pulling the trigger, leaving it in its current condition...


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 12:21pm
I found a putot in Bessin, in France. a place where there was a lot of fighting, attack, counter-attack. between the 7th Canadian brigade and the 12th Hitlerite judge. unfortunately, the barrel is blocked. I remain careful when handling it, I will find a way to pierce the barrel and see if there is a cartridge.


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 12:22pm
In putot en bessin 


Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 12:28pm
Wow a battle field find, very cool.
By the looks of the butt stock bolt, might been blowed up!
God bless whom ever had a hold of it......


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Lead from the front; eliminate all obstacles...


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 3:34pm
Could be it was smashed up from years of heavy farming equipment being worked on top of it. We'll never know... unless the serial # could be traced to who that rifle was issued to, and if that person survived the war or not. THAT would be some top drawer Sherlocking!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 3:49pm
Not that far from the Normandy Landings, so could have fallen in June, 1944. 


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 3:56pm
God rest their soul.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Lee enfield 303 Lee enfield 303 wrote:

In putot en bessin 
The Sherlock Holmes in me is saying that the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade was in a firefight with the 12th SS Panzer Division in and around Putot-en-Bessin and the infantryman that the rifle was assigned to lost his life that day. Which would definitely explain why that thing is still cocked...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 4:32pm
Based on the Serial Number, it was likely made in August, 1943. Approx 900,000 No. 4 rifles were made at Long Branch by the end of the war. This rifle is number 425,162, close to half way thru the production run. 

Very interesting piece, froze in time.  Would like to see more photos of it.  Was the trigger guard still attached? 

Long Branch is a suburb (municipality) of Toronto, Canada.  Not that far from where I grew up. The factory was built in 1940 and the first rifle completed in September 1941 by the Crown Corporation Small Arms Limited (SAL). Oddly though, we refer to these as “Long Branch” No. 4 rifles and not by the name of the corporation that made them (SAL). The opposite is the case for the “Savage” made rifles, which were made in Chicopee Falls by the Savage Steven Arms Co. 




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 4:36pm
A moment frozen in time.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 4:43pm
The Canadian 7th Brigades first combat duty assignment was on 6 June, 1944, Juno Beach.  The soldier who carried this rifle may have landed and survived that day only to be killed just a few days later. 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 24 2023 at 10:39pm
I think the rifle should be taken to the Canadian museum at Juno beach.
It's a small piece of history, but important to share. 
Accurate information about where it was found, may help identify what date it was lost.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Sapper740
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 2:36am
I'm trying to remember my history but wasn't Bessin at the far west end of Gold Beach making it unlikely that a Canadian dropped this rifle?  Is it possible that  Brit soldier could have been issued a Long Branch?  Just wondering.


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 3:19am
Hi.
Thank you for your answers, I will keep you informed.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 5:00am
Many if not most of the Long Branch rifles went to Britain under contact. 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 9:25am
yep.
It was just north of my route back in the day on the N13



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Sapper740 Sapper740 wrote:

I'm trying to remember my history but wasn't Bessin at the far west end of Gold Beach making it unlikely that a Canadian dropped this rifle?  Is it possible that  Brit soldier could have been issued a Long Branch?  Just wondering.

 
An excerpt about the "Little Black Devils/Royal Winnipeg Rifles." 

The II German Battalion attacked the Royal Winnipeg Rifles defending the village of  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putot-en-Bessin" rel="nofollow - Putot-en-Bessin . The battalion managed to break into the village and surround several companies, effectively pushing the Winnipegs out of the village, (inflicting 256 casualties) – of which 175 were taken prisoner. A counter-attack launched at 20:30 by the Canadian Scottish Regiment, however, regained Putot-en-Bessin, and the II German Battalion withdrew and dug in south of the village. Following the battle,  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SS-Aufkl%C3%A4rungs-Abteilung_12&action=edit&redlink=1" rel="nofollow - SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12  deployed to the west of Mohnke's regiment and, by the evening of 8 June the division, while having failed in its assignment to drive the Canadians into the sea, had effectively halted the units of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, in the Allied advance on Caen.
I have a hunch that the OP's rifle originally belonged to one of the 256 Canadian casualties...



Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 9:44am
I think you may be on to something...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 12:01pm
By the end of this thread, we'll figure out the name of that Winnipeg Rifles soldier who carried (and dropped) this Long Branch No. 4 Smile at Bessin!  

By the way, most of the Canadian infantry units were Reserve regiments who were called into active service in 1939.  The Reserve regiment I belonged to also landed in Normandy on 6 June as part of the 9th Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, and went all thru North West Europe and into Germany in 1945.  When I joined up, there were still a few NCO's and Officers who had served in the regiment overseas in WWII.  They are all gone now.  


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:01pm
All brave souls, God rest them all.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:30pm
Lee-Enfield 303. 
A very fitting tribute to the fallen and as request from me is if you would be so kind as to take one more photo of that rifle with one Red Poppy sitting on the flatside of the reciever and post it here please...


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:32pm
he!!o britrifles.
Are you a veteran of World War II?
I would love to know more about your story.
Antoine 


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:33pm
Yes goosic 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:37pm


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 1:39pm
I will take a photo for you once the restoration is complete.



Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: October 25 2023 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Lee enfield 303 Lee enfield 303 wrote:

he!!o britrifles.
Are you a veteran of World War II?
I would love to know more about your story.
Antoine 

No, I’m far too young for that.  I was referring to the regiment that I served in.  The regiment had been active in many wars, including WWI and WWII. When I joined the regiment, there were a few remaining members who had served in WWII.  I had also been in the units Army Cadet Corps and our CO had served in the regiment during WWII as a Captain and later became CO of the Regiment, the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders.  My father and his father had also been in the regiment. 






Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 6:57am
my lee enfield came back to life...



Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 7:15am


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 12:33pm
Both show as "Broken Links"?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 12:53pm


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 6:20pm
Is that a loaded round i see?...


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 05 2023 at 10:54pm
Yes it is


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 06 2023 at 10:56am
Is it just me, a trick of the light or does the cocking piece have a semi-circular cutout on the rear face? I've never seen one like that?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 06 2023 at 11:58am
Shamu, I suspect it's rusted out around the screw thread hole.

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 06 2023 at 7:06pm
That would make sense!


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 07 2023 at 4:07am
I managed to extract the ammunition


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 07 2023 at 2:29pm
Is it intact?


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 08 2023 at 10:27pm
Yes


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 10 2023 at 12:15am


Posted By: Lee enfield 303
Date Posted: November 10 2023 at 12:16am


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 10 2023 at 7:03pm
Both broken links, sorry.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)



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