On Ishapore Bayonets, short ones?
Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Ishapore Enfields
Forum Description: Let's see those Indian Enfields!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9507
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Topic: On Ishapore Bayonets, short ones?
Posted By: Arminius
Subject: On Ishapore Bayonets, short ones?
Date Posted: January 24 2019 at 1:41pm
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he!!o! I am not fixated on bayonets ( ahem ;-) ), but: I suppose, No 1 Mk III ( SMLE ) bayonets will work. No, I do not want to collect bayonets, and I am not interested on a "correct" bayonet. The original bayonet ( 1907 ? ) is too long, I would rather have a shorter one. Would a bayonet for a Rifle Mk V ( Jungle carbine ) fit the Ishapore 2A1? Or are there ( reasonably priced ) bayonets out there, that are shorter, and fit the No 1 Mk III and Ishapore 2A1? Thanks in advance, Hermann ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 24 2019 at 5:39pm
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no - the no5 bayo will not fit yes the P1907 will and would be correct for the older no1 mk3 but the 2A & 2A1 rifles used the 12" version , they are plentiful and less costly , the earlier ones had a pommel like the P07 the ;ater ones adopted a more square version , https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS559US561&q=Indian+made+bayonets&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiI36nY4ofgAhVl9YMKHTMfADcQsAR6BAgAEAE" rel="nofollow - Images for Indian made bayonetstry - http://psmilitaria.50megs.com/ http://joesalter.com/category/Bayonets Item #24691 http://joesalter.com/category/products/India-P1907-No-1-MK-2-Bayonet" rel="nofollow - India P1907 No 1 MK 2 Bayonethttp://bayonetconnection.com/ http://www.old-smithy.info/ |
Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: January 24 2019 at 6:34pm
| A-Square is right, In India, they never liked the 1907 pattern and much preferred the shorter one. Same length as the Lee Metford bayonet. (12" blade ) |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: January 25 2019 at 10:59am
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URGENT! May buy this: Is this correct for the Ishapore 2A1, and it looks to "good". It´s labeled: "Bayonet Enfield MK II RFI" Questions: 1 - does it fit the Ishi? R.F.I. is "Rifle factory Ishapore"? 2 - are there fake ones in existence? 3 - is this reconditioned? 4 - seller asks 100 Buy or not? TIA, Hermann   ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: January 25 2019 at 11:22am
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Am I right, that it would be the same, or fit both, .303 and .308 rifles? Thanks! ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: January 25 2019 at 2:39pm
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Looks good to me. Remember the Indian rifles were made much later than anyone else's were, up to 1975! So a late bayonet on a police rifle may well look that good. Price I don't know, 100 in what currency? & We can't be much help with prices where you are either. I bought a full length original for a little less that that in the US a year or so ago. "Externally the Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifle is based upon (and is almost identical to) the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British" rel="nofollow - .303 British calibre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80%93Enfield" rel="nofollow - SMLE Mk III*
rifle, with the exception of the distinctive “square” (10 or 12 round)
magazine and the use of the buttplate from the 1A (Indian version of the
FN FAL) rifle. The 2A was designed to allow the British Pattern 1907
(P'07) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_bayonet" rel="nofollow - sword bayonet
used on the SMLE MkIII to be attached. There were other differences to
the Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifles that include the use of improved steel (to
handle the increased pressures of the 7.62mm NATO round), and a
redesigned extractor to cope with the rimless round. Production of these
rifles started in early 1960s and is believed to have been discontinued
in 1975. The original (2A) design incorporated the Lee–Enfield rear
sight which has graduations out to 2000 yards. The re-designated "Rifle
7.62mm 2A1" incorporated a more realistic 800 meter rear sight. The
stock is recycled from the No. 1 Mk. III armory stock, with the addition
of a cross screw forward of the magazine well. Some stocks were
salvaged from existing surplus and show artificer repairs where rotted
or damaged wood has been replaced. This repair is especially evident
with the recoil draws (the area the receiver contacts when recoiling
after the shot) that often failed over time due to the rifle being
rack-stored butt down / muzzle up, which allowed oils and grease to
migrate downwards into this critical area." ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: January 25 2019 at 3:16pm
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I´ve already bought it. If it fit´s, and is the real thing, I have a nice rig of Ishapore kit. It its refinished, I don´t care. If it doesn´t fit … don´t know. But looks good from my short search on the net. I am still looking for a 12 rd mag, but I am very happy with the new 10 rd mag from Goosic. ( Thanks Goosic  )Thanks, Shamu! ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 25 2019 at 6:56pm
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good buy - you got one of the earlier and yes it will be correct and fit just fine , RFI is one of the indian factories [also NWR , MIL , JU ] perfect 12.2" version no fuller and false edge , not a shortened long blade from my british and commonwealth bayonets reference book - India Pattern no1 mkII*, early style pommel , RFI on the ricasso but still has the crown over GRI scabbard would be a shortened no1 should date to 1947 production , the squared pommels came out that year as well ,
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Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: January 26 2019 at 1:48am
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Thanks! Hermann ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: February 14 2019 at 4:13pm
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he!!o! Got my Model 37 webbing "frog": it´s TIGHT around the scabbard! Was, with force  , able to push the bayonet scabbard into the frog … until the "knob" for holding the scabbard contacted the "holding straps".I have NO idea, how I shall get the "holding knob" on the scabbard between the two "holding straps". I presume, by turning it in the straps? It´s REALLY tight! As it is, the securing strap won´t hold the bayonets handle, it sits too high in the "frog".  Hermann ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 14 2019 at 7:26pm
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Insert then turn the scabbard so that the button is towards the back (belt loop) of the frog. The cotton has likely shrunk over time. Judicious and careful use of a spoon handle (don't use anything sharp like a screwdriver blade) used like a shoe horn will help to get it in there. The web weave will stretch a little at a time, so be patient and keep working it. Then when it is shoved down in there far enough, turn the it so the button is back towards the front. ------------- . . Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 15 2019 at 4:13am
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I didn't know where to put this...but since theres discussion about pointy bits here, I'll post on this thread. When my pard from Blighty was here to Ice fish 2 years ago..he bought a Russian SKS,(1953) & it resides in my locker. When he was here for deer hunt this past Nov, he decided he wanted to put a tapco aftermarket stockset on it..but we couldn't find one. This January, he was here for Ice fishing & we found one, so we put it on. We removed the bayonet. It is now surplus, as is the original wood stock. If anyone is interested - they will go cheap!  ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 15 2019 at 7:01am
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Yeah the Pat 37 frogs are tighter than a bull's bum in fly time. Its normal. The loop is to high & I have no idea why. The short Indian bayonets were just regular ones with the blade cut down originally, but later they were made that way. The blades don't have the groove in them which is one way of telling. I found this leather reproduction frog which has a little strap instead of the slotted band. Unfortunately its not an exact replica of anything, more like a copy.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 17 2019 at 6:35pm
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"...The cotton has likely shrunk over time. Judicious and careful use of a spoon handle (don't use anything sharp like a screwdriver blade) used like a shoe horn will help to get it in there..." simon has it correct and spot on , the webbing has shrunk over time and disassociation with its scabbard , it needs to be gently stretched and coaxed into position , take you time , there is no hurry , but it was meant to be mated , the stud will find is place in the button hole as you get it fitted , huh - in the reread maybe i need to try a paperback novel ???????????????
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 18 2019 at 6:01am
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There are actually 2 versions of the "pat 58" (green) frog, one has a small slit in the upper strap, the other doesn't you just use the space between the top & bottom straps. The Pat '37 (Khaki) one has only one.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 19 2019 at 6:50pm
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i had a lot of good photos of mine once upon a time - down to this one example of the frog on my P1913 but you can see how they are to fit this one has the button hole - i used that , and the double strap - the stud can be fit between those as well ,  |
Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 19 2019 at 7:38pm
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I was led to believe that the 'button hole' was to allow the WWI style frog to be used with the WWII spike bayonet??? Don't remember from where I got that titbit of info. ------------- . . Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: February 20 2019 at 7:53am
  ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: February 20 2019 at 7:55am
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From 1951. So should fit nicely to my bayonet, period correct, but the webbing is TIGHT!! No hole in upper strap. Hermann ------------- Certified gun nut Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns. A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 20 2019 at 9:17am
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Just use the slit between the 2 straps. & lots of wiggling as you slide it on. You might try pre-stretching it a bit with something like a broom handle wiggled in & left overnight as well to let it open more.  Insert it with the bayonet in the scabbard, it makes the leather much more rigid that way!
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 20 2019 at 5:43pm
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that 51 should work fine , shamu is correct , lots of wiggle will get it done , turn the stud to the side/back and let it slip under then straighten into the slit between ,
simon - never heard that one before but could well be , maybe some idle time reading my references is in order ,
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Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 20 2019 at 7:02pm
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Funny how memory works. I remember who it was that told me now, it was our Territorial Sergeant, a Sergeant Bellamy at Army Cadets in the 1960s. Clear as a bell, I can hear his voice, but I couldn't tell you where I was and what I was doing at this time a week ago...... We wore wool battledress, and WE.37 webbing belts and gators. The web was blackened and the brass was polished. The flag party honour guard carried No.4 rifles and wore the spike bayonet on the belt, same dual purpose frog with the button hole. That is also where the teaspoon handle used like a shoe horn idea came from. The scabbard was removed when blacking the webbing with black boot polish. The teaspoon handle let you slip the button out, or back under the loop. There is an original set of P37 Canadian webbing in my collection, I have a WWII artillery officer's uniforms, his Sam Brown kit and webbing in his travel trunk up in the mezzanine. If I remember correctly, the spike scabbard mounts in the button hole so I have an example. Tomorrow I will put my snowshoes on and go out to the garage with the camera and we will see how the spike bayonet scabbard so fits. ------------- . . Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 21 2019 at 4:47am
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would soaking it in water help loosen? It would dry awfully tight, I would imagine. (As in: pay attention - I can only do this once.) ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 21 2019 at 7:14am
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Soaking in warm soapy water might relax it a bit, that does help form leather frogs. But I am wondering if cotton web is like natural fibre rope. When rope gets wet, the fibres soak up the water and swell, making them fatter but shorter. The result is a shorter rope. One reason why a tight knot is much harder to untie in a wet rope. Sailors carried a marlin spike on their knife for that reason. But this sounds like it would make an interesting experiment. ------------- . . Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 21 2019 at 6:49pm
| i have never used water , work it slow and easy like your 'first time?' |
Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 21 2019 at 7:39pm
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work it slow and easy like your 'first time?' I just spat coffee on my keyboard! LMAO!! mine was not slow and easy, far from it! ------------- . . Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 22 2019 at 5:26pm
| i get that .... few of us had that kind of time back then , hope your keyboard survived .......... |