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Shooting a Lee Enfield to 1000 Yards

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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 7:23am
Goosic, I would, if I could find a 1000 yard range with paper targets!  But, you will not see bullet holes at that range even with a spotting scope, so it would be a trial an error approach.  The electronic targets give you instant feedback. 

I've got my loads about maxed out for my comfort level. I've loaded up 50 rounds of each load.  They are about mid-range .308 Win loads, maybe a bit less bc I'm seating the bullets out past magazine length to get the bullet a bit closer to the lands.  If the Hodgdon data is correct (in terms of pressures and velocity) they will be within the 45,000 CUP limits I want to hold to.  

The No.4 action should be OK to 50,000 CUP, the maximum average pressure of 7.62 NATO.  The load used for the 1967 Palma Match was a 155 gr boat tail pushed to 2800 fps, and was likely at or just over 45,000 CUP.   

Edit:  My first two loads I am testing (155 SMK and 175 TMK) are both only 1 grain above minimum charge of Varget for .308 Win.  The pressures calculated are 44,000 CUP and 44,600 CUP respectively, so no issues there.  I will pump up the 168 TMK load to 2 grains over minimum charge, which is 45,900 CUP if the first two loads don't trip the 1000 yard target.  






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 1:08pm
We made backing boards out of corrugated metal roofing.  Makes a very distinctive, "PONK" when hit from that far away with that being our instant feedback. Are you going to head out my way this coming March? I'm certain that the 300 - 1000 yard range will be in use that week...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 2:56pm
I would like to shoot the Western Games and HP Matches in March, but not sure I can swing that much time off work.  Easter Games and HP matches in May, then D-Day Matches, each taking a week.  Can’t wait to retire!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

"It is no easy feat shooting a service rifle out to 1000 yds".  No doubt shiloh!  

With the No. 4 service rifle rear sight, and a 5 mph cross wind, you would have to aim out on the berm somewhere.  You might be lucky and be able to pick an aiming point on the next target (or two) over depending on wind strength.  

IIRC, the SR(a) matches were shot to 600 yards; stranglybrown would know for sure on that.  SR(b) matches to 1000 yards; and that is what the PH and AGP rear sight with windage adjustment was really intended for.

Agree to your first line Geoff!
Over the last 15 years or so the target at 1000 yards does appear smaller than I remember it from my first visits to Bisley.

We've started our winter here and Stickledown range, (1200 yards) is very exposed so I shall probably give  it a miss until April with my No.4's although I will be using my scoped Accuracy International there after Christmas and into the new year.  

One oddity with my SR"b" .303 is that 900 yards seems much easier (or did) than 1000 yards looking back to the last three years or so, it might be where we're positioned as the 900 electronic targets are in the middle of the 50 lanes (slightly sheltered) and the 1000 yard firing point is at the highest point on camp at the extreme right near the clocktower. 

In the late 1990's when the NRA allowed civilians to once again shoot alongside the army again after a gap of some 30 plus years the maximum SR"a" distance was 500 yards although I have observed the LMG matches start of at 600 and do run downs to 100 yards.
A quick look through three of my Bisley Bibles 1920, 1950 & 1973 indicate 500 yards was very popular and if anything most of the 600 yard SR"a"  matches go back further in time although I would need to to a bit more reading to confirm that. 

Enjoy your range visit! 


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 3:19pm
I did "the Grand" at Bisley, way,way, back in the day.
You'd be amazed how easy its is to have someone shoot on the wrong target because of the large amount of windage sometimes needed.
Even with the what 12~15' spacing? & the big giant colored numbers. you're aiming of by yards almost some times & then with a little tunnel vision its easy to come back not one, but 2 targets & setup for the next shot!
I forget which range it was now but one of them had its berm & the berm for a different one almost meeting, but at a  solid angle! The wind could really whip round that corner, channeled from the other berm. From memory the other range was to our right?
It was only blowing 1/2 a gale way out there, but a gentle 3~5 mph steady breeze on the firing line, probably 35 MPH for the last 150 yds!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 3:35pm
Thanks Mick, 500 yards would be tough enough with the service sight.  My memory is pretty poor of those days so many years ago I shot at Connaught ranges with the Service Rifle.  I’m not even sure I ever shot out to 1000 yards there.  I definitely remember “running down the range” for the rapid stages, so perhaps we started with prone slow fire at 500? 

The old long range targets used back then had a 30 inch (3 MOA) aiming mark, for a score of 5.  I’m not sure I could see that with my shooting glasses today set to focus on the front sight.  I know I couldn’t read the number boards at the Tennessee 1000 yard range, I had to count how many targets over from the end of the line on each shot!  It’s just a little smudged speck in the haze and try to put the front sight just below the little speck. 

Well, should be fun and likely a humbling experience!  Part of what I’m doing is to try and replicate what the service rifle competitive shooter achieved with this rifle back in the day at the long ranges. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 3:42pm
"B-I-M-O" targets?
I vaguely remember shooting different courses.
Most of my shooting was at "The New Passage" (aka "Pilning") range as I was down in the "Wesufenglandt"a trip to Bisley was a treat indeed.
we used BIMOs & "figure 4's" ("Charging German" full size) targets.
I do remember firing with Bog Stock rifles at long range but I also remember using PH-5C sights "out there."
the memories are all converging now.Confused
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I did "the Grand" at Bisley, way,way, back in the day.
You'd be amazed how easy its is to have someone shoot on the wrong target because of the large amount of windage sometimes needed.

I managed to cross lane a fortnight ago, and I was only at the 200 yard point by myself!

It was one of those cold misty days with about 6/10 light value; in fact it's better described as a "Marie Celeste" type of day as there were about 5 people at the 600 yard point and a further three at 300 yards and myself at 200..this is on Century range with 108 lanes!

I was trying different loads in my 7.62mm No.4 and one didn't register which I thought was strange so put another one down range which did register. It then occurred to me that I ought to check the monitor on the next lane and there was my missing shot!

Shamu, giving your post some though I suspect you were shooting on Shorts Range which has now disappeared under the clay complex which was built for the 2002 Commonwealth Games. 
My first ever historic competition was held on Shorts and I met people there I'm still friendly with today, the loss of Shorts was a huge blow to the historic community and I don't think we ever got the numbers back shooting we had before they bulldozed it. 
The wind still plays havoc there albeit to the right of where you were shooting, during the McQueens sniper matches in the middle of summer, you can usually tell when the wind is creating a problem by the small whirlwinds on the back stop lifting the sand.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2022 at 6:42pm
Ouch!
I really miss those days.
I remember watching a bullet or two going downrange because of the "halo" it created!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 6:45am
Made it to the range.  Sitting in the parking lot, forgot about the time change (US Central Time here).  Opens in 15 mins.  Conditions are pretty good, partly sunny, 43 degrees F, winds 8 mph from west, left to right across the range.  

The elevation here is 1800 ft which helps increase bullet velocity.  Will be interesting to see how accurate the Strelok predictions are…


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 1:34pm
looking forward to your range report.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 6:14pm
A bit of a marathon today, but I left the range quite pleased with how the rifle and ammo performed.  I’m sure I’m the limiting factor to getting better scores at long range.  

To recap, I shot my Faz UF56 DCRA 7.62 No. 4 Conversion (converted to 7.62 by Long Branch in 1966).  This rifle has about 1000 rounds thru the barrel.  Fitted with PH 5C rear sight.  Barrel bearing at the middle (sling swivel) band.  Standard front sight.  

Temp 45 deg, wind was across the range left to right about 8 to 9 mph.  Some squirrelly winds for sure as there are some places along the range where there is protection from berms along the sides, other places where it is open to the winds.  At some distances, the winds reversed direction!  Was tricky to deal with.

Two loads were shot, for the first time in this rifle:

Load 1:

155 gr. Sierra Palma MatchKing
45.0 gr. Varget
Lapua Case
WLR Primer

Load 2:

175 Sierra Tipped MatchKing 
43.0 gr Varget
Lapua Case
CCI BR-2 Primer

Muzzle Velocity predictions were made by interpolating on the Hodgdon online load data. Range elevation settings were predicted with the Strelok ballistics program.

All shooting was done prone in sling with no support, working my way down the range starting at 100 yds, then 300, 600, 800 and 1000.  These 5 different ranges have electronic targets that record the bullet velocity and shot position on the NRA Target overlay on the monitor.  The targets are the current US NRA Military type targets:  SR-1 at 100, SR at 300, MR at 600 and LR at 800 and 1000.  



The Strelok velocity and elevation setting predictions were surprisingly very close!  Generally within 20 fps and 1 MOA.  I was very surprised by this.  The actual velocities were slightly less than predicted.  I attribute this to the high pressure area that moved in last night resulting in clear skies by the morning. Adjusting for actual pressure put the predicted velocities to within less than 10 fps from actual.

Load 1 turned out to be marginal for triggering the target sensors at 1000 yards.  About 40% of the hits displayed a warning that the velocity was too low, but it did show the hit location correctly (according to the RO).  This warning required the monitor to be cleared of all hits before proceeding, if not, subsequent hits would not register.  

Load 2 was of course slower than load 1 at all ranges up to 800 yards where it was about equal to Load 1, but at 1000 yards, it was about 20 fps faster than load 1.  This is entirely a result of the higher BC of the 175 gr TMK over the 155 Palma MK. This bullet is the ticket to reliable recordings at the 1000 yard line.

My approach was to fire as few shots as possible at the Short and Mid ranges to reserve ammo and minimize shooter fatigue for the Long Ranges. Once I had hits in the 10 or X ring, I moved on to the next range after collecting actual velocity data.  The loads really performed, standard deviations were 10 fps or less for Load 2, a bit higher for Load 1.

Here is the 300 yard target with Load 2, three shots were sufficient to confirm elevation settings.  This three shot group was only 0.68 MOA extreme spread. Note the standard deviation of 8.7 fps. 



My windage estimates were a bit off at 600, but I was happy with the elevation spread at 600 yards with both of these loads.  This is Load 1.



At 800 yards, I struggled to keep consistent elevation, this is Load 1 and I overcorrected for my first sighting shots that were low.  Then undercorrected, but pretty tight windage spread.  Note that the grid overlay on the monitor (an IPad) is 1 MOA on all these targets. 



Then on to 1000 yards.  My first sighter was a ….



By the end of the day I had shot 80 rounds and was whipped.  The final 10 shots at 1000 yards with Load 2 was showing signs of fatigue and pain.  4+ hours of prone shooting with extreme focus and concentration is very tiring.  



Regardless, not a single shot was outside of “the black” on the Long Range Targets, including my first sighters. That was better than I expected, because that 44 inch black aiming mark on the LR Target looked incredibly small at 1000 yards!  That was very satisfying. My scores were in the low to mid 90’s for ten shots at 800 and 1000.  Not competitive for modern Palma Match shooting (which uses much more accurate rifles with 30 inch heavy barrels), but I believe these results are on par with the 1967 Palma Match results which used these DCRA converted rifles.  
 

I believe the 175 TMK had a slight accuracy edge over the 155 Palma Match, which could be because of the shorter jump to the lands with that bullet in my rifle.  The 155 had to jump about 0.080 inches and the 175 about 0.030.  The bullets were seated out past magazine length and single shot loaded. 

There was absolutely no signs of excessive pressure.  The primer cups remained rounded and extraction was very easy.  If I do repeat this, I will try the 168 TMK, the 175 TMK performed very well as is. 










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 6:20pm
Very impressive shooting with equally excellent results sir...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 6:29pm
Thank you Mr. Gossic.  I just checked off an item on my bucket list. I’m sure I will do this again, but now that I have, it’s not too high on the priority list.  

This sure raised some interest at the range, everyone else shooting on the bench with scoped rifles.  The RO was a bit nervous, not knowing who I was, showing up with an old “wood gun” wanting to shoot it prone at 1000 “What did you say you want to do???”  He had me shoot first at the steel plates at 600, 800 and 1000 to mitigate the risk of shooting one of the sensors.  But, I was able to hit those little 24 inch steel plates first shot, even at 1000 yds.  Could barely see it, a tiny white spec.  Fortunately, the range faces north and it was sunny, so it lit up well. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 7:18pm
You got me wanting to shoot out to a grand with this newly acquired Maltby now. I know it can but, the question is, can I still do it through open sights...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2022 at 7:30pm
That is impressive! Well done!
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