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450 Fuller View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Stubborn extractor screw
    Posted: November 20 2022 at 4:51pm
Replacing extractor/spring in an Ishapore 7.62 2A1 rifle.


The extractor screw is VERY difficult to remove, though I have backed it out
1/32 inch.

I suspect that the older broken extractor spring may be placing some resistance
on the screw in the extractor slot. Since the screw is fighting me so hard,
I am looking for new suggestions to unscrew it out while I have a worn screw slot.

New parts including screw are headed to me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2022 at 5:04pm
Remove the broken/ weak spring with loops of dental floss.
Then unscrew the stubborn screw.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2022 at 7:05pm
If you have a fine jewelers file you can make the slot in the screw head deeper/better as well. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2022 at 10:04am
Impact driver if you have one.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2022 at 12:17pm
Thanks all.


The extractor screw is resisting all efforts; It came out 1/32 in,
then seemed to bind up. Have jewelers small files, one of which is best:
it has file edge down, with smooth sides, thus limiting filed portion to screw slot depth while NOT widening the slot's side dimensions.
This requires infinite patience and may need an impact driver. Efforts to remove the spring with dental floss have not met with success.
Frustratingly difficult. Have used a tiny amount of penetrating oil. No joy.
An Enfield riflesmith here is rare -and really good gunsmiths non-existent.
PO Ackley would be nice to have around, or an experienced Ishapore Armorer with a full workbench of specialty tools.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2022 at 12:41pm
Can you tap/drive out the extractor spring from the front?  Here’s how I remove the spring in a No. 4 bolt head, but I would think the No. 1 may be removed this way as well.  Then make sure the extractor is free to pivot. 





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2022 at 2:30pm
Keep in mind that the spring is a "V" and in the 2A1 the
spring has its terminus base at the extractor screw shaft.

At least looking at from my 2A1 perspective. But you may have
something. The extractor, of course-is no longer among the living-as the "claw"
died in the pressure extraction and separated..

My brass rod may have saved that-by gently backing the damaged cartridge case out at the same time lifting the bolt-maybe-but thats just hindsight.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2022 at 2:55pm
That ordeal may have damaged the screw.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 3:50am
450 Fuller:
When you had your unexpected "Over Pressure" you did more to that bolt assembly than just breaking an extractor claw.  The bolthead for 2A & 2A1 were typically made from malleable steel with only the face being heat treated. Even though you have stated that you had test fired the rifle, "After The Fact" and everything worked accordingly, you are still playing with a damaged rifle component. The assumption here being that you have, in the literal sense of the word, "smashed" the bolthead to the point that it has soldered/staked itself to the screw...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 5:55am
If it were me, I would take a zip cut and destroy that bolt and all its components. But that's just my opinion...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 5:55am
Goos:
You are partially correct-no question.
Excepting-the screw did begin to back out-then hung up.

There is a U-tube segment found in the net showing removal/reinstall
of 2A1 spring/extractor. Author does not recommend use of dental floss but does recommend a pair of small medical SS forceps. BUT, his screw behaves in the normal manner. It must be removed as a first step.

Other recommendations include use of valve grinding compound -the grit of
which helps bind screwdriver head to screw slot. That and penetrating oil from other side.
Impact driver will be next step. The screw must be removed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 8:18am
Originally posted by 450 Fuller 450 Fuller wrote:

Goosic:
You are partially correct-no question.
(Excepting-the screw did begin to back out-then hung up.)
The screw must be removed.

Preface: I was a machinist for Garrett Turbine and a Gunsmith for Wrights Armory. I originally apprenticed under Al & Steve Biesen.
You ever put a penny on a train track?
Your bolthead was the penny and your over pressure was the train. 
That screw might be able to move back and forth but, because of the extreme pressure it was put under, both the screw and the hole it is in are now shaped like an oval.  You just can see it.
Between the face of the bolthead and the lug recesses in the reciever, a space of approximately 4.25 inches and a diameter of less than 0.0580", your bolt assembly was hit with over 20 plus tons of forced energy that had nowhere to go except through the bolthead and then the bolt body. Do yourself a favor and contact BRIAN DlCK @ www.bdlltd.com and explain what you have and what happened. Explain what you are attempting to do as well...

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 9:08am
Seems pretty risky to mess with this rifle.  Have to agree with Goosic here.  

If you know that your load was an overpressure, hopefully you know what the load was (unless you perhaps mistakenly double charged pistol powder with cast bullets or an unknown error you can't quantify).  Did you pull any bullets from this load to attempt to identify what went wrong?

The maximum load on the bolt assuming C.I.P. Peak Piezo chamber pressure for .303 British (52,939 psi) would produce about 8,800 lbs of compressive force on the bolt (assuming no load is taken up by the case). C.I.P Proof Pressure would put about 11,000 lbs on the bolt.  

For .308 Win, the loads on the bolt would be 10,500 for C.I.P. Peak Piezo and 13,100 lbs for C.I.P Proof.  That's a lot of load...nearly the weight of 5 Honda Civics sitting on that bolt. 

But, there is no telling how much load was applied, if it was indeed an overcharge, to cause damage to the rifle, your load must have been substantially higher than this.



 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 9:13am
Seriously, guy, its time to let it go. You're seeing many glaringly obvious signs of serious material damage.
I would not go any further in good conscience. You are playing in a field where ego has triumphed over good sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 9:20am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Seems pretty risky to mess with this rifle.  Have to agree with Goosic here.  

If you know that your load was an overpressure, hopefully you know what the load was (unless you perhaps mistakenly double charged pistol powder with cast bullets or an unknown error you can't quantify).  Did you pull any bullets from this load to attempt to identify what went wrong?

The maximum load on the bolt assuming C.I.P. Peak Piezo chamber pressure for .303 British (52,939 psi) would produce about 8,800 lbs of compressive force on the bolt (assuming no load is taken up by the case). C.I.P Proof Pressure would put about 11,000 lbs on the bolt.  

For .308 Win, the loads on the bolt would be 10,500 for C.I.P. Peak Piezo and 13,100 lbs for C.I.P Proof.  That's a lot of load...nearly the weight of 5 Honda Civics sitting on that bolt. 

But, there is no telling how much load was applied, if it was indeed an overcharge, to cause damage to the rifle, your load must have been substantially higher than this.



 

Whilst the untimate load is relevant - it is far more related to the almost instananeous 'shock load'  - like a hammer hitting a nail but a 'multiple' of many, many times force.

As a minimum the bolt should be scrapped and the rifle body given a serious 'looking at' looking for any signs of stress or stress cracking especially around the body locking lugs.

Personally I'd scrap the rifle - I'd never trust it again.

You have played Russion Roulette and now the risk has increased from 1 in 6 to 1 in 5 - do you know what the next round will do - even a 'normal' round may now be too much for the stressed body.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2022 at 9:33am
Agree.  The peak load happens very quickly, so you can call it a "shock" load.  Load is load, doesn't really matter how fast it occurs in this case.  It's slow enough that the bolt and receiver have to carry that load.  

The Piezo peak pressure is recorded at a very high rate, so as to capture the peak (maximum) pressure in the chamber.  There's not enough inertia in the bolt and receiver and the load doesn't occur fast enough to prevent it all being reacted at the bolt head (some might be taken by friction of the case in the chamber). 

Curious tho, an issue he believes is due to a gas check?  Perhaps one got stuck in the bore?  I've never heard of this problem, there are numerous published loads for case lead bullets with gas checks in the .303 and other bottleneck cartridges... 



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