"THE LOAD"

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   A while back gun scribe Ed Harris wrote piece by this title for one of the annual soft cover gun books. To wit, he proffered that a somewhat universal load existed for the granddaddy military rounds....7.62 NATO, .30-40 Krag, .30-06, 8x57, 7.62x54r and of course  the .303.

Ed's experimentation led him to use 13 grains of Red Dot, mainly because he a lot of it on hand, I think he said. Other pistol/shotgun powders have since been added, as I understand it.

About 6 months or so I started using said charge with a well-worn Lee .312/185 gr . Sadly (for me) this mold was bought off a friend who'd used it for 2 decades to feed his 7.7 Arisaka. Now, those replacement molds appear to be on eternal backorder.

The Load duplicates the old deer loading of the .32-40 Winchester, according to Ed. 

Regardless of current availability,  it is indeed a winner, in my book. Quite accurate for my eyes at 100 yds.

Any of the brethren use this combo?

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Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: "THE LOAD" Posted: November 14 2021 at 6:38am
	A while back gun scribe Ed Harris wrote piece by this title for one of the annual soft cover gun books. To wit, he proffered that a somewhat universal load existed for the granddaddy military rounds....7.62 NATO, .30-40 Krag, .30-06, 8x57, 7.62x54r and of course the .303. Ed's experimentation led him to use 13 grains of Red Dot, mainly because he a lot of it on hand, I think he said. Other pistol/shotgun powders have since been added, as I understand it. About 6 months or so I started using said charge with a well-worn Lee .312/185 gr . Sadly (for me) this mold was bought off a friend who'd used it for 2 decades to feed his 7.7 Arisaka. Now, those replacement molds appear to be on eternal backorder. The Load duplicates the old deer loading of the .32-40 Winchester, according to Ed. Regardless of current availability, it is indeed a winner, in my book. Quite accurate for my eyes at 100 yds. Any of the brethren use this combo?

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A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13432	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 14 2021 at 8:22pm
	i have lots of red dot and clays but ive yet to find any published data on using shotgun/pistol powders for rifle calibers , i have suspected pressure issues so please post the data that supports this , i do use a bit over 13 grains in my shotgun loads

Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 15 2021 at 2:27am
	Thanks for responding A square. I believe the article originally appeared in the 10th edition of Handloader's Digest (circa '94). He has apparently updated it elsewhere to add a few more shotgun powders (2400, Unique and Bullseye). Iff'n I had the computer smarts of my granddaughter I could send it to you. But thankfully a Google search found it in a plethora of other sites and forums. C. E. "Ed" Harris wrote regularly for the American Rifleman in the 1970s and 80s. He has currently retired to unoccupied West Virginia, but still makes appearances in numerous firearms and reloading forums.

britrifles Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Online Points: 5296	Post Options Post Reply Quote britrifles Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 15 2021 at 5:31am
	The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (4th Ed.) does show pistol/shot gun powder loads in rifle cartridges. .308 Win: Red Dot 14 grains max with 115 gr bullet Unique 15 grains max with 170 - 180 gr bullet .303 British Unique 16 grains max with 180 gr bullet NOTE THESE ARE FOR CAST BULLETS ONLY. Ed’s article on “The Load” says Red Dot can be used with both cast and jacketed.

Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 15 2021 at 5:59am
	Brit, I agree that these are for cast only. I should have mentioned that. I did make the mistake of trying a FMJ once in my .308 Mauser. About 5000 raps later with a brass rod and wood mallet it finally popped out from the chamber. Lessons learned department. My 30 year + old Lee .312 diameter, 185 grain mold is about ready for the boneyard. Wobbles all over. Am (and have been) on the hunt for a new one. Have used the both the Lyman .314/115 gr and the Accurate Molds 31-134D with joy also.... but generally with a light charge of Unique in my No4 Maltby. The 115 grainer more less shoots at .32-20 performance levels.

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13432	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 15 2021 at 6:04pm
	good to know - i had cone a little looking for my 4570 hoping to find a red dot/clays load a few years back , mostly because i wanted to use the same powders in all of my cowboy reloading , i did not find the recommendations at that point - it was not a thorough search tho , i would really like to limit that to a single powder , particularly with the limited availability recently , if anyone has that id love to hear of it , i do shoot cast bullets from that rifle and always will ,

Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 16 2021 at 12:20am
	I found an online copy of the original article. In it, Ed Harris did use this 13 grain Red Dot load in the .45-70 with satisfactory results. However he cautions this load was for more modern rifles like the Marlin 1895 and presumedly the Ruger No. 1 & Browning M1886. For Trapdoors he recommended lowering the charge to 12 grains, IIRC.

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13432	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: November 16 2021 at 6:36pm
	thanks - i shoot a modern made sharps rifle , im pretty sure it will handle modern loads but im interested in the traditional trajectory with heavy lead cast for my purposes , ill check into it ,

DaveNo5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: January 15 2022 Location: Western NY, USA Status: Offline Points: 82	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveNo5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 26 2022 at 6:38pm
	I shoot a TD 45-70 and 22 gr 4198 works well for me there. I am not aware of any data that supports using Red Dot or a pistol/shotgun powder in 45-70, even with cast bullets. I have a copy of the Ed Harris article for "military rifles," and that article is limited to 30 caliber only, of "modern construction." Your Sharps rifle may be modern, but the case design is very different from those of the cartridges described in the Ed Harris article. If Ed wrote a separate article on other (non-military) rifles, I would be happy to read it. Dragunov, do you have a link?
	DaveNo5

Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 27 2022 at 3:20am
	Dave, I found "The Load" on the Marlin Owners website. Ed is listed as the author by his more formal name of C. E. Harris. On the MO site he goes by the handle of "Outpost75", FWIW. It was originally published in the now-extinct Handloader's Digest (12th edition, page 84) back in 1990, if I read the Roman numerals correctly. The MO version might be updated. Nick Harvey's Practical Reloading Manual has a few cast bullets listed for .45-70 with Unique and 2400. The Lyman Cast Bullet handbook won't help you, as the loads are clearly marked for use in the Winchester M1886 (and presumedly Browning & Marlin M1895) and the Ruger No. 1.l

DaveNo5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: January 15 2022 Location: Western NY, USA Status: Offline Points: 82	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveNo5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 27 2022 at 2:05pm
	Dragunov: Thanks for the reference. There indeed is a description of a 45-70 red dot load there. 12 gr max for a "trapdoor" action. Very interesting. Unlike A-Square, my 45-70 rifle is vintage--1880's construction. The fastest powder for which I have data in 45-70 is trail boss. 12 gr of that comes to 25,000 psi CUP. Green dot (which I have) is faster, and Red dot faster yet. Where they are relative to the supposed 28,000 psi max for TD actions is anyone's guess, but they are certainly no lower than trail boss pressures. I myself do not even use trail boss and instead stick with H4198 which is around 14,000 psi CUP. Thanks again, Dave
	DaveNo5

britrifles Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Online Points: 5296	Post Options Post Reply Quote britrifles Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 27 2022 at 3:47pm
	I only use black powder in the old original black powder cartridge rifles like the Snider Enfield, Martini Henry and Trapdoor Springfield, all with cast bullets of course, 20:1 Lead/Tin. Some people will do “nitro for black” loads, but I like the authentic experience with black powder, and pretty much impossible to create excessive pressures, unless you load with FFFg or FFFFg. 85 grains of Fg under a 500 grain bullet packs a healthy punch.

DaveNo5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: January 15 2022 Location: Western NY, USA Status: Offline Points: 82	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveNo5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 27 2022 at 5:07pm
	Britrifles: I am with you 100%. BP is hard to find these days, and was not available when I started loading and casting bullets around 7 years ago. I now do have some cartridges in BP, and they are a lot of fun. As I get more experience with them, I will transition to BP exclusively in the rifle. Anyone here shoot a Lee Metford?
	DaveNo5

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13432	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 27 2022 at 7:35pm
	i have a lee metford but its converted to a 22 cal trainer , never found the right one for my collection ,

Dragunov Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 192	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dragunov Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 28 2022 at 6:42am
	I haven't shot black powder since selling my TC Hawken in the late 90s. While it was lots of fun, back then I enjoyed cleaning my firearms as much as shooting them.

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13432	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 28 2022 at 2:49pm
	i have a lexington model kentucky flintlock rifle and a flintlock handgun but no black powder