Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Bayonets
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Unknow socket British bayonets
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Unknow socket British bayonets

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 3875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Unknow socket British bayonets
    Posted: December 04 2013 at 1:38am
Any ideas what these British bayonets are, model wise and are any of them worth obtaining?





If I recall correctly the markings are a crown on the left and an R or N with another crown over it on the right. The attachment mechanisms on the 3 are very similar but the lengths are different. One of them has a quad edge blade and the other two have tri edge.




Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
hoadie View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2006
Location: Niagara/Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8212
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 2:34am
The top 3 LOOK like Enfield bayos from civil war period
Hard to tell w/o close up pics, tho
Hoadie
Loose wimmen tightened here
Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 3875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 4:10am
Hoadie,

Any idea what they are worth in Yankee dollars?

 
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11474
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 9:48am
its not easy to be sure without dimensions here , one needs overall length , blade length , configuration of the stud key and muzzle ring diameter of the socket , length of the socket ,  stud to muzzle dimension , wouldn't hurt to get specifications of the cross section as well , and lots more photos , 
you would not believe how many different versions/mfgrs/country of origin there are , and more than one stamped crowns on them , not to mention the contract versions made by one country for another , 
variations with flat , tri-form , and cruciform blades exist throughout ,  including some exotic shapes , the lengths not only vary from pattern to pattern , but also in variations within patterns , some were military , some were sporting/hunting , 

**bottom one looks oldest without locking ring mechanism / straight socket collar / flat blade , but its bent the wrong direction , should be straight or bent out of line of fire , 
if its english it resembles a flat bladed 1715 dutch contract variety , mostly like the 1740-41 variation were copied in england they could have a variety of cutlers markings ,  earlier versions socket although without the muzzle opening collar are longer, 
 
the later sockets 1740, 1755 , 1770 land pattern,  have the collar at the muzzle opening and are longer , became more tri-form in section and were longer blades at 14" then 17" , 

-------------------------


** the top three dont look to be english with their tight right angle elbow radius , and various blade cross sections , but with the locking rings they fall after 1815 in the british bayonets , 

the pattern 1815 for the baker rifles introduced the locking rings [which these all have] but had a more sweeping elbow , and fullered tri-form blade of 17" and overall length close to 21" , 

the pattern 1838 & 39 have no locking ring and are true tri-form blades of 16.75" & 17" , pattern 1840 & 41 has no locking ring and 16.75" tri-form blade , pattern 1842 & 51 have no locking ring and are 17" tri-form blades , 

on the P-1853 each side of the 17" triangular blade were of equal length , with overall length of 20.5" , and an outward cant from the muzzle line , 
to further complicate inspection/identifications the P-1853s had steel blades and elbows with a cast iron socket , other bayonets have steel blades with cast iron socket and elbows , also later 
the sockets of these were later bushed for the martini henry rifles 

the latter pattern 1876 made for the martini henry were longer 25.1 OAL and 21.7 blade length to accommodate the shorter rifles , has no cant , and the socket was of the smaller diameter , with same equilated tri-form blade , the zig-zab of the locking keyway is 90degrees from the earlier pattern , 

the pattern 1895 is the bushed down P-1876 for the martini enfeild rifles , after that the sword/knife bayos predominated , 
-----------------------------------------------------

as to US bayonets [many were imported ] but ; the elbows are closer in appearance to yours ,  they were tri-forms of various types mostly , 

the 1775 were without collar or lock ring and tad over 14" blade , definite cant out , 

the 1795 variants were also collarless and without lock rings from 12" to near 16" , with a mid-length version with a very flat blade similar to yours , 1808 is longer , 1816 & 1819 are both 16"+ , 

the 1835 & 42 introduce locking rings , short sockets , 18" blade , 

the 1841 has a longer socket but the blade is almost 20" , 

thw 1854 remington has no locking ring and is over 16" ,

the M-1855 colt is 18" with locking ring and tri-form blade , as is M-1855/70 , 

the M-1861 is almost 18" with locking ring but a short socket , 

the M-1862 is 18" without locking ring , 

the winchester M-1866 has almost no elbow and is 15" , the M-1866/71 remington short are 18" and long are 21"+

the M-1867 is a 21" blade , 

the model 1868 & 1869 were 14" blades , 

the model 1871 & 73 blades were about 18"

the model 1882 blade was 21.44"

most were marked with US , 

--------------------------------------------

french 1790/95 looks good for the bottom one , it has the right elbow look and flat blade with length of 13 1/2" , socket looks about right without collar or locking ring , i cannot determine if it was to have a cant - but looks to be straight , 

the second from the top looks like a french model AN IX [as in 9] has an 18" blade and was copied by the US as its M-1847 , 

there was a dutch M-1871 [1st & 2nd pattern] that are a possibility for the cruciform , cannot determine length for these tho , as well as a russian M-1871 cruciform of unknown length , and the swedish M-1867 cruciform that looks possible , as well as a cruciform swiss M-1863 & M-1871 [shorter version] 


sorry to go on so long , but that gives you an idea of the details necessary to ID these 
Back to Top
hoadie View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2006
Location: Niagara/Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8212
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 12:20pm
..Oi! Like I said Paddy...better pics
Hoadie
Loose wimmen tightened here
Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 3875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 9:41pm
I guess I will have to take a road trip and look at them.

Thank Y'all for your help.

Cover me boys I'm going in.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
Bear43 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: August 11 2010
Location: Doland, SD
Status: Offline
Points: 2860
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 10:36pm
A_square, I am always impressed with the massive amount of bayonet knowledge you have!
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11474
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 10:23am
thanks but you give me far too much credit , 

i have reference books on the british and US , i spent a lot of time looking into some very narrow areas , ive got some data on others but the emphasis was always on what i owned or needed to buy , and i have enjoyed the bayonets ive owned so it was easy to find time to research , 
Back to Top
hoadie View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2006
Location: Niagara/Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8212
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 11:35am
When I attended "School for the Soldier - Infantry" (a rotating course for re-enactors in the off season) we took edged weapons training at Ft.Ontario. With professional instructors, we PROPERLY learned to use the bayos with our Enfield muskets. That makes for a LONG reach! Your opponent -with his Springfield - has a reach just as long. Once your taught..they aren't so unwieldy after all.
Learned a lot thru those courses.Took artillery (black powder) class @ Ft.Niagara..That was cool Get to LIVE fire at the end of the course.
Hoadie
Loose wimmen tightened here
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11474
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 11:39am
and - here is a very good possibility for further info on that older [no locking ring] version , you need to look at this one as its very similar to the one shown .....




and here is a list of places to research -

Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 3875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2013 at 10:42am

I took some measurements and more pics. Also have the markings on one. Could not see any markings on the others. There are two quad edge and one tri edge. Think I said the other way around last time.  Measurements are in this order


Blade

Overall

Socket


Quad 1

20"

22.5"

11/16"


Markings: H556, a B with a crown over it inside an oval, and NC (?) with a crown over it


[URL=http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B2.jpg.html][/URL]




[URL=http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B1.jpg.html][/URL]


B1 -B3


20.75"

23.75"

11/16"

Quad 2


[URL=http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B4.jpg.html][/URL]







[URL=http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B6.jpg.html][/URL]


B4 -B6


Tri


17.75"

20.75"

10/16"



[URL=http://s1043.p

hotobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B8.jpg.html]http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b433/Paddyofurniture_photo/B8.jpg" />[/URL]



B7-B9


Old bayonet

B10-B11


[URL=http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/Paddyofurniture_photo/media/B10.jpg.html][/URL]




Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
paddyofurniture View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2011
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 3875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 10:24am
More info.

Can anyone id these top three bayonets?



A top

B middle

C bottom

Very bottom one unknown and a dug up relic.


A

Markings on elbow (shank): none

Locking collar: outer diameter is 1.18 inches (left to right) – inner diameter is 1.02 inches (left to right) – opening has bump-out to accommodate front sight

Bore: inside is .71 inches – outside is .87 inches

Elbow (shank): length is 1.6 inches

Shoulder: .5 inches in diameter

Mortise: zigzag (?)

Socket: 2.67 inches in length

Overall length: 20.75 inches

Blade length: 18.5 inches

Blade width (at maximum): .78 inches

Two-fuller (groove) blade with curved bottom


B

Markings on elbow (shank): crown over B – another crown over NL

Locking collar: outer diameter is 1.285 inches (left to right) – inner diameter is 1.10 inches (left to right) – opening has bump-out to accommodate front sight

Bore: inside is .71 inches – outside is .865 inches

Elbow (shank): length is 1.635 inches

Shoulder: .592 inches in diameter

Mortise: zigzag (?)

Socket: 2.15 inches in length

Overall length: 22.5 inches

Blade length: 20.75 inches

Blade width (at maximum): .65 inches

Four-fuller (groove) blade


C

Markings on elbow (shank): none

Locking collar: outer diameter is 1.17 inches (left to right) – inner diameter is 1.00 inches (left to right) – opening has bump-out to accommodate front sight

Bore: inside is .715 inches – outside is .865 inches

Elbow (shank): length is 1.8 inches

Shoulder: .57 inches in diameter

Mortise: zigzag (?)

Socket: 2.65 inches in length

Overall length: 23.625 inches

Blade length: 21.625 inches

Blade width (at maximum): .765 inches

Four-fuller (groove) blade






Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11474
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 11:58am
im workin on it , bear with me , time is needed to digest it all and match photos etc 

------------------------------

 of these , the "B &C" blades because of their length , are most likely for shorter rifles , but the "A" blade may be for a longer one , 

the  "B" bayonet had the only markings , that could be british 

but  it is 'not' because its a cruciform , all british socket bayonets are tri form , 
and its length does not match them , majority are about 20.5" OAL with a 17" blade , 3" socket 

particularly the P1853 is 20.5" OAL / blade is 17" / socket is 3" / shank is 1" / socket OD 15/16" & ID is 25/32" [ these were for the longer rifles] most common here , 

the P1876 is 25.1" OAL / 21.7" blade / 3" socket 29/32" OD & 23/32" ID / 7/8" shank 

the P1895 is similar  [last two were for the shorter martini rifle ]

this means im looking at another country [very limited info in my possession ] 

the "A" bayonet has the right shape to be british , but , the OAL of 20.75" & blade length of 18.5" is outside the standards including the india standard , as well as the socket length  

the "A"  could be danish - i have no dimensions but , 1854 is triform , 

* the "A" could be french 1847 , its a triform , 18.5" blade , 59/64" wide / 2 11/16" socket , 7/8" ID , 1 1/4" shank , 
it is also close to the french ANIX , but socket OD is 1" & ID is 56/64"  

the spanish 1871 is a triform with a 21 3/8" blade , 3/4" wide / 3" socket , about .70" ID 

if these were US : 
it would be triform , so only "A" fits the bill , 
could be the 1835/42 as its blade is 18" & 7/8" wide  / socket is 2 5/8" , 21/32 ID & 31/32" OD /1.5" shank , 
but they are marked US on the flat of the blade at the elbow , 
the 1855 is close but the shank is 1" , 
the 1857 & 1862 & 1866  are close but the socket is 3" , 


**the 1871 is very close to a match in all dimensions , but it has a "L" mortise [you might call it a zig zag] , only about 10,000 were made and they were made in fayetteville and in mississippi , 
the 1873 scout is as well but it has the US marking top of blade , 


the "B & C" is again a cruciform , so these are all of another country , 

**they could be austrian  - i have no dimensions but , 1842/1854/1867  are all cruciform 

the russian 1871 is a cruciform of the right shape but i have no dimensions , and its somewhat rare here ,

the sweedish 1867 & 89 and swiss 1863 & 71 are cruciform , but i have no dimensions 

*a good possibility is the turkish [US] peabody martini [short rifle] , its cruciform , unmarked , but blade  length is 22+ inches ,
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.