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What is wrong??

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philtno View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 17 2019 at 12:30pm
Hi guys,
I would need and appreciate your experts' advise on what follows:
Yesterday I went at the farm i'm shooting at and sent a handful of bullets with my 1943 Longbranch Mk1* at 100 m where i usually use to get grouping around 5-6 cm with the loading I stick with for the last months (37 gn of Varget and Hornady 150 gn .312). This time I repeatedly started to literally spray the bullets all over the target, getting somewhere like 10-12 inches (!!) groups....not just once but three times in a row.  OK, there was a bit of wind but, apart from that, all conditions were pretty much the same.  What makes me worry and believe it would be unlikely the shooter is that I kept getting good groups with the Mosin...!!
So my question to you guys is, apart from making sure the barrel is clean and taken care of, which I always do, what could be the issue?  I was thinking about woodwork that might have come loose or something similar but, at first glance, nothing seems to have moved.  still have vertical pressure of the barrel at the front sight level, the front sight still not touching the wood...
Shall i dismantle it completely? check something in particular??
Thanks for your help ;)
Philtno
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 1:55pm
First thing to do is make sure all screws are tight, especially the front trigger guard (main) screw and the butt socket screw.  I inadvertently left the main screw loose once and the rifle wouldn’t group.  

If no loose screws and barrel is cleaned of all fouling (copper and powder), and you know the load has proven good in the rifle before, I would remove the hand guards and check the barrel pressure on the forend at the muzzle.  Slip a piece of paper between forend and barrel at the barrel bearing point and lift the barrel up with a spring scale until the paper will slip. 

If you decide to remove the forend, don’t pull the forend down from the muzzle, use a wood block and gently tap down along the upper edge of the forend at the rear supporting the barrel at the muzzle. 


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Goosic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 2:01pm
I am only assuming that the bullets are flat based and not a boattail. 
The issue might be the muzzle end of the rifling is no longer in contact with the bullets allowing them to roll out and tumble through the air causing your displaced group. Two groove barrels are notorious for losing their rifling at the muzzle and sometimes in the center of the barrel. Check for any bulges in the barrel, check the rifling,and check that the bullets are seated to the specific depth and not set back. You might also consider trying a box of PPU 174grn FMJ's against your handloads and see if they do the same thing as the 150's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 2:06pm
Yes, muzzle crown wear or damage would cause this.  The OP said this load shot good previously, so the crown may have gotten damaged.  Inspect with a magnifying glass look for any dings right at the edge of the bore.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

First thing to do is make sure all screws are tight, especially the front trigger guard (main) screw and the butt socket screw.  I inadvertently left the main screw loose once and the rifle wouldn’t group.  

If no loose screws and barrel is cleaned of all fouling (copper and powder), and you know the load has proven good in the rifle before, I would remove the hand guards and check the barrel pressure on the forend at the muzzle.  Slip a piece of paper between forend and barrel at the barrel bearing point and lift the barrel up with a spring scale until the paper will slip. 

If you decide to remove the forend, don’t pull the forend down from the muzzle, use a wood block and gently tap down along the upper edge of the forend at the rear supporting the barrel at the muzzle. 


Yes, I'll check that.
Thanks for the advice.
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

I am only assuming that the bullets are flat based and not a boattail. 
The issue might be the muzzle end of the rifling is no longer in contact with the bullets allowing them to roll out and tumble through the air causing your displaced group. Two groove barrels are notorious for losing their rifling at the muzzle and sometimes in the center of the barrel. Check for any bulges in the barrel, check the rifling,and check that the bullets are seated to the specific depth and not set back. You might also consider trying a box of PPU 174grn FMJ's against your handloads and see if they do the same thing as the 150's.
Yes, those bullets are flat based.
I guess if that was a loss of rifling it would have appeared progressively, not that sudden, isn't it??
Regarding bullets seating, the COL was 2.995 - 3.000, basically what Hornady is recommending.  But I have to say that some of them were a bit "hard" to push into the chamber, just like if they would be too long, which is strange because I checked the chamber by trying to push an empty case with a bullet set loosely into the chamber to estimate the length available before it touches the rifling and came up with 3.050...I did the same exercise with different bullets i have (174 gn, 150 gn, Speer, Hornady, S&B) and all of them came up much longer than what i'm using (2.995-3.000) while still having the feeling that I have to "push them" into the chamber.
I have checked all my cases and made sure they are below or at 2.221 max
Now, i'm using the Lee Loader to reload my rounds and the Lee Loader is only neck sizing...could that be part of the issue?? the case being too "deformed'...I have been reloading the same cases about 15 times now.
I just ordered some greek milsurp to renew my cases....I'll shoot them to see if they behave the same way.
Thanks for your input Goosic.  Please let those advices keep coming my way....I want to learn about it.
Cheers
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Yes, muzzle crown wear or damage would cause this.  The OP said this load shot good previously, so the crown may have gotten damaged.  Inspect with a magnifying glass look for any dings right at the edge of the bore.  
Yes, I did that and couldn't spot anything wrong...Didn't use a magnifying glass though but I'm kind of very careful with them rifles as I know these are pieces of history i don't want to damage.
I'll have a second look tonight.
Thanks for the input.
Cheers
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 7:20pm
10 to 15 reloads is about when you begin to feel resistance to lock the bolt.  Successive firings lengthen the case to the point the case headspaces on the shoulder.  You will need to full length size the cases, but don’t bottom the die out on the she!! holder, back it off so that the die will just “bump” the shoulder back a few thousands of an inch.  A case length comparator gage works good for this purpose.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

10 to 15 reloads is about when you begin to feel resistance to lock the bolt.  Successive firings lengthen the case to the point the case headspaces on the shoulder.  You will need to full length size the cases, but don’t bottom the die out on the she!! holder, back it off so that the die will just “bump” the shoulder back a few thousands of an inch.  A case length comparator gage works good for this purpose.  
Thanks for that Britrifles...Thumbs Up
Now, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't use any press for reloading, only the Classic Lee Loader...the one where all you need is a rubber mallet and a very tolerant wife (hahaha).  
I also have trimmed my cases so they are below max length (2.221) so my understanding is that, when you say "full length size the cases" you mean pushing the shoulders back a bit so they don't hit the bottom of the receiver keeping from closing the bolt easily. is that what you mean?? if it is how can I achieve that without a reloading press and the appropriate die?? I guess I can't?? is that correct?
Also, side question, could that be the reason for spraying bullets like I did??
Cheers
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 8:26pm
Before you do anything else,buy a box of commercial ammunition and fire those out of that rifle. If you encounter the same identical issues you are having with your reloaded ammunition, have that barrel carefully inspected for any bulges near the center and any erosion of the rifling from the breech to the muzzle. Those two groove barrels have a habit of losing the rifling from erosion due to corrosive ammunition and excessive firing. The muzzle inwards is where you will see that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2019 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Before you do anything else,buy a box of commercial ammunition and fire those out of that rifle. If you encounter the same identical issues you are having with your reloaded ammunition, have that barrel carefully inspected for any bulges near the center and any erosion of the rifling from the breech to the muzzle. Those two groove barrels have a habit of losing the rifling from erosion due to corrosive ammunition and excessive firing. The muzzle inwards is where you will see that.
Goosic,
you seem to insist on the "commercial" rounds I should fire to test if it behaves the same way.  Wouldn't you do the same with non-corrosive milsurps, like the greek milsurps I mentioned in my earlier post?  From what I receives as information from the gun store I get them from (guncity.com) those are certified non corrosive.
Now, you said something that worries me a bit. you said thay "overfiring" it would have the same effects, which I definitely can understand, but what would you consider "overfiring" a No4Mk1*?? I purchased that one in April and have probably shot 7-800 rounds since then, 900 max.  Would you consider that as "overfiring it"??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2019 at 2:47am
How many rounds have been through it since 1943 is the question you need to ask yourself.  You have a 76 year old rifle that you do not know the exact history  of or how many total rounds have been through  it in that 76 year time span. I will explain why I would not use milsurp ammunition to test later,but, if you have milsurp ammunition, use it. If it does the same exact thing the handloads are doing then,you need to check the barrel.  I have a 1943 Savage No4Mk1*. It shot fine when I first bought it. After a couple hundred rounds through it,the accuracy fell way off and the target looked like someone threw a handful of bullets at it. After checking to make sure all the woodwork and metal bits were snug and tight, I looked at the rifling with a real good bore light. About six inches  past the chamber there was a section of rifling missing  due to the use of corrosive ammunition and lack of proper cleaning.  I also found that the rifling was thinned out to nothing at the muzzle end. The barrel  was replaced and it shoots exceptionally well  now. I currently have three Longbranch No4Mk1* rifles,one of which will not group any longer because of the same exact issue the Savage  had, in the exact same spots in the barrel. 

 You mention that the Greek milsurp ammunition was "certified" non-corrosive. Did the seller personally  breakdown each individual round and remove the primers and then reload each individual round with "certified" non corrosive powder and primers?
 Commercial ammunition from Herters, Winchester,Remington,and Privi Partizen are all built to tighter tolerances then the milsurp ammunition and will give you a better grouping if,all is well with your rifle. You asked a question in your original post and I have given my answer based off of past experiences with the same exact issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2019 at 5:50am
Goosic,
 
Good advise, but the Greek surplus is known to be non-corrosive and has been known as such for a very long time.  It is good stuff as well.
I still do not see why a rifle shooting well, should suddenly "go to pot" at the very next outing, so think there is another problem rather than barrel wear.  No ideas What exactly, but it might need going through with a fine tooth-comb, so to speak!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2019 at 7:09am
I had a similar problem with a Sporter I got in a trade. Would not start shooting good until about 8-10 rounds fired. Then it would group about 3". I would of course take it home and clean it. Next time out, same thing. I ended up bobbing a few inches off the barrel and recrowning. Groups are now about 2" @ 100 yards... as it's a bush gun (I cammoed the stock) I decided not to clean the bore until the end of the shooting season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2019 at 7:18am
The use of corrosive primers will do no harm as long as you clean the bore immediately after shooting.  Hot water with a mop works best for this, then dry patches, powder solvent, dry patches and light oil.  If you live in a very dry environment, you might get away without cleaning for a while, but if you don't clean out the primer salts, it WILL corrode the bore, showing up as pitting.  When it gets bad enough (and it doesn't take long), the bullet will get damaged by the rough surface on the lands and accuracy will degrade as copper fouling will quickly build up.
The complete erosion of barrel rifling forward of the chamber is typical of cordite loaded service ammunition (Mk 7 as opposed to Mk 7z).  Cordite burns hotter than NC powder, and will burn the throat away.  Accuracy life with cordite is on the order of a few thousand rounds. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2019 at 7:22am
Originally posted by Pukka Bundook Pukka Bundook wrote:

Goosic,
 
Good advise, but the Greek surplus is known to be non-corrosive and has been known as such for a very long time.  It is good stuff as well.
I still do not see why a rifle shooting well, should suddenly "go to pot" at the very next outing, so think there is another problem rather than barrel wear.  No ideas What exactly, but it might need going through with a fine tooth-comb, so to speak!
 
I agree with Richard here, the description indicated that last time the rifle shot, it grouped well with the same ammunition.  Certainly no harm in trying commercial ammunition to rule out a problem with the load that might have occurred.  Give the barrel a good cleaning, preferably with a solvent that will remove copper such as Boretec Eliminator or Sweets 7.62. 
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