Enfield muzzleloader rifle identification

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   he!!o everyone, New guy here just getting into Enfields and I could use some help identifying one if anyone would be so kind. It is stamped 1863 Enfield and has the crown and VR markings. It is a two band percussion cap .577 carbine with a bayonet lug. I was told that it is an artillery carbine but am not sure as I think those are pretty rare. The barrel is 24" long. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks in advance!

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Piston Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: March 25 2023 Location: Niagara Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Piston Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Enfield muzzleloader rifle identification Posted: March 25 2023 at 1:45pm
	he!!o everyone, New guy here just getting into Enfields and I could use some help identifying one if anyone would be so kind. It is stamped 1863 Enfield and has the crown and VR markings. It is a two band percussion cap .577 carbine with a bayonet lug. I was told that it is an artillery carbine but am not sure as I think those are pretty rare. The barrel is 24" long. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks in advance!

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 16997	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 25 2023 at 4:59pm
	it is a pattern 1853 , the short version , there was a longer one as well , these were used extensivly in the US civl war , mostly by the south as they were trading with england at that time ,

Piston Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: March 25 2023 Location: Niagara Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Piston Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 25 2023 at 6:25pm
	Thanks for the response. So would it be considered an artillery carbine, musketoon, or just a carbine?

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 16997	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 25 2023 at 7:43pm
	i believe they refered to them as a three band - for the long rifle , and a two band for the short version , there are a couple others here that might add better knowledge than my old minds recollections , not sure they used the word "carbine" exactly but i do think it was issued to artillery crews , i had one once in my collection but it was the three band and i never dug very deep in the research as my interest was more in cartridge rifles , i also had a snyder conversion of one of these - simioar to the US trapdoors these were conversions of the muscates to cartridge loading , i rather like whar i see in your photos but i cant give you much more , terry lee might add to the thread when he drops in , this site for the most part are interested in the later rifles , these might get addressed better in the british militaria forum , they concentrate a good deal in the older weapons and have a very knowledgeable group ,

Piston Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: March 25 2023 Location: Niagara Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Piston Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 25 2023 at 8:15pm
	Thanks for your info! I will see if anyone else chimes in and also check into the British avenue. Thanks again!

britrifles Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404	Post Options Post Reply Quote britrifles Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 5:01am
	You will likely get more information over on the British Militaria Forum, they have a sub-Forum covering the P53 muzzle loader. This forum covers the Lee Enfield, a much later bolt action rifle.

hoadie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9680	Post Options Post Reply Quote hoadie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 6:02am
	I'v never heard them referred to as a "carbine". (Doesn't mean they weren't - just I don't seem to get out much). Take a good close look at the bayo lug. I've seen 2 banders that had bayo lugs added after they were shortened. Doesn't mean this one did - just askin.
	Loose wimmen tightened here

britrifles Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404	Post Options Post Reply Quote britrifles Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 6:36am
	Some info here on the 1856 short rifled musket, Calvary and Artillery Carbine. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/this-old-gun-pattern-1856-enfield-cavalry-carbine/

Piston Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: March 25 2023 Location: Niagara Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Piston Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 8:41am
	Thanks!! I will check in at the forum you mentioned. I do have a couple of full wood lee enfields that I may need some guidance on as well but will start another post about those. Thanks again!!

terrylee Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 30 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 942	Post Options Post Reply Quote terrylee Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 9:46am
	Snap! Same as mine. A Pattern 1856 Short Rifle as issued to the British Rifle Regiments and Sergeants of the Line

Honkytonk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 5190	Post Options Post Reply Quote Honkytonk Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 9:51am
	That is a cool rifle. Did they shoot a patched ball or a Minie ball?

terrylee Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 30 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 942	Post Options Post Reply Quote terrylee Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 10:19am
	A minieball in a tear-open cartridge.

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 10:46am
	"Short rifle"! This was back before they made "a one size fits all rifle" for mounted & infantry troops. That's part of the apparently odd nomenclature of the later SMLE. Infantry got "Long Rifles", cavalry got "Short Rifles" & the SMELLIE was a universal compromise. IIRC carbines were even shorter at 20" or so?
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)

Honkytonk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 5190	Post Options Post Reply Quote Honkytonk Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 12:14pm
	How heavy was the projectile and how much BP did they use? I ask because I'm curious to compare it to the combo I use in my Renegade. Thanks!

terrylee Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 30 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 942	Post Options Post Reply Quote terrylee Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 3:45pm
	The service bullet and powder charge weighed 530 and 68 grains respectively.

britrifles Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404	Post Options Post Reply Quote britrifles Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: March 26 2023 at 5:43pm
	The later Snider conversion for breach loading metallic cartridges used 70 grains of powder (similar to Fg) under a 480 grain hollow based expanding Pritchett type bullet similar to a Mini ball.