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Bore erosion, pitting and tool marks

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DarioPirovano View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 15 2024 at 1:53pm
JB bore paste & bore bright have arrived, so i started the cleaning and polishing job.

Following Geoff’s advices, started with bore paste with 10 full strokes, with the patch wrapped around a worn brush.
It cleaned more carbon away immediately and lightly polished lands and grooves.. but my patches are smaller then the suggested so it felt not so snug when working… I decided to use VFG bore pellets around a “spiral threaded” jag to do the job



Very snug fit inside the bore, you can feel it scrubbing when pushing the cleaning rod.

The result unfortunately is not the best I hoped, even after 3 complete treatments, but it signifantly cleaned and polished the bore.
I believe this barrel is irreversibly damaged by pitting, I’m maintaining it since this rifle shoots moa at most distances.
For those who don’t know this rifle is a fazakerley (PF) no.4 mk2 from 1949, converted in sr(B) target rifle with center bedding, ajp tz4/47 rear sight and target sling.

Here’s the before and after:



After 3 complete treatments:

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DarioPirovano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 2:09pm
I did the same job to my long branch 95L no.4 mk1 target rifle from 1950.
The barrel was clean but it have very bad tooling marks in to the lands.
Excellent result with a bore in better condition.
Hard carbon and carbon ring removed immediately.
Before and after:


After one treatment:
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 2:57pm
For bores that are pitted, the best we can hope for with using JB is removal of all fouling and any high spots created by either tooling or by the oxides from the corrosion process. What is left is relatively clean pits in the steel.  

I would now oil the bore, perhaps with Kroil or something similar. Then dry patch out the bore right before you shoot it.

The fact that your rifle shoots MOA in spite of the pitting is telling us that this amount of pitting is inconsequential to accuracy in these rifles.  If this were a heavy barreled Match, F-Class or Benchrest barrel, it would be much more evident. I doubt my AR Service Rifle would shoot MOA at 600 yds with a barrel in this condition, but the .303 seems more tolerant of barrel condition. 

I suspect it might take some fouling shots for accuracy to return after this level of deep cleaning.  Let us know how it shoots after this. I definitely have seen a significant improvement in a few of my No. 4 rifles after I got all the fouling out, but it took a few rounds for it to settle down again. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 3:07pm
Forgot one other comment. Even though these were target rifles, clearly the cleaning and preserving routine that was used by previous owners was seriously lacking. Not what you might expect from a serious competitive rifle shooter.   The same is true for the two rebarreled No. 4 rifles I got from my Dad, although they don’t appear to be quite as bad as yours.  I believe this is why we see few LEs in the vintage military rifle matches here in the US. So few LE rifles have good barrels, and few gunsmiths have the tools or access to new barrels to replace the old pitted or worn barrel. 

I believe much of this depends on the environmental conditions in which the rifle is stored. If humidity is above 50%, there is little hope to prevent pitting unless all fouling is removed and the bore is protected by a preserving oil or grease.




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DarioPirovano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 3:35pm
I agree,I have oiled the bores with clp after the cleaning..
Do you believe it is a bore tolerances or harmonics matter?
I have an m16 a1 with the pencil chromed barrel, it is super sensible to fouling, I had to remove the flash hider to clean it because the previous owner have never cleaned the bore, do you believe me if I tell you I had to break the carbon out with a chisel and a hammer? There was a huge carbon build up inside.
After that cleaning and reinstalling the flash hider within torque specs, the carbine is shooting horribly…
This had me think, sometimes gunk and carbon may be help accuracy in some way?

Usually when I deep clean guns it take almost 20 rounds to restore accuracy, one of my Swiss k31 took 30+ rounds to get on point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 3:46pm
I converted them to target rifles, the no4 mk2 was used by a German police shooting team, it only had the action bedded horribly and the barrel free floated, it was really neglected…
The no4 mk1 was in standard issue conditions, I had a spare forend that I center bedded.

Correct barrel cleaning is something not quite popular or taken seriously in Italy, the proof is that Italian armory’s don’t keep solvents and other serious cleaning products, many “guru’s” of shooting here advice novices to never clean surplus rifles because of loosing of accuracy, but it is a matter of 10-20 rounds!!!

I have measured the humidity in my gun safe it is at circa 40%, some times I left it open for an hour and dry it out with an hair dryer, it works good for me..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 4:02pm
Yes, that does not surprise me. 

On a very good barrel, like the BSA ball burnished barrel on my Fulton No. 4, it always shot great clean. The first round out of a clean cold bore was right in the group. My sighter shots would be in the X ring, so I usually would tell the scorer verifier that I was “going for score” after my second sighter even though the vintage matches allow 5 sighters.  But, on a badly pitted barrel, I believe some amount of fouling is needed to fill in the pits and smooth the rough spots. But, once fouling builds up again, accuracy will suffer. Worse than that, corrosion can begin again under the copper and hard carbon fouling if left in the bore for extended periods. 

All this discussion got me curious and I pulled out my other DCRA 7.62 conversion. This is #580, that is the 580th No. 4 7.62 conversion done by Long Branch done circa 1965.  It belonged to a good friend of my Dad’s. He passed away in 1967, and had only put about 120 rounds thru the barrel. I have his target scorebook. Dad and I shot about 50 rounds thru it, and then I shot another 50 several years back.   So, total round count is 220. 

I have not shot this rifle in several years, and I suspect I cleaned it with Bore Tech Eliminator after the last shoot as there is no copper in the bore. A fair bit of carbon though. 

This is probably the first time I borescoped this barrel. I was presently surprised to see there is no pitting at all. I’ll give it a good scrub with JB, as there could be pitting under the carbon, but I don’t think so. 

From the looks of the throat, the barrel does indeed have very few rounds through it, barely any detectable firecracking: 



And about 6 inches down the bore:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by DarioPirovano DarioPirovano wrote:

I converted them to target rifles, the no4 mk2 was used by a German police shooting team, it only had the action bedded horribly and the barrel free floated, it was really neglected…
The no4 mk1 was in standard issue conditions, I had a spare forend that I center bedded.

Correct barrel cleaning is something not quite popular or taken seriously in Italy, the proof is that Italian armory’s don’t keep solvents and other serious cleaning products, many “guru’s” of shooting here advice novices to never clean surplus rifles because of loosing of accuracy, but it is a matter of 10-20 rounds!!!

I have measured the humidity in my gun safe it is at circa 40%, some times I left it open for an hour and dry it out with an hair dryer, it works good for me..



This much I do know. A Benchrest shooter who does not meticulously clean the bore will never win a match. I’d say the same is true for F-Class shooters. They know that a clean smooth bore is absolutely critical to maintaining accuracy. Barrels are considered to be consumables. Once a drop in accuracy is detected, the barrel gets replaced. That is certainly true for my AR Service Rifle. I have retired two barrels within one year of shooting.  The two Bartlein barrels that I carefully monitor and clean with JB about every 400 rounds are going strong after about 3000 rounds on each. 

It’s not as obvious on a typical WWII service rifle because we don’t expect sub-MOA accuracy. 

I know a few service rifle shooters who are not as particular about barrel cleaning, but I’ve also seen them shoot poorly at times and wonder what is wrong.  The winners keep their rifles in top shape and bores are kept clean. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 4:24pm
Usually since I don’t compete, I start measuring groups at the second 10 round target.. my no4’s starts 1/2” high and right when cold.
I once listened to a metallurgy engineer that said, some copper and lead fouling is needed exactly because of micro pitting and tooling marks…

You are a lucky man Geoff, it is impossible to find a dcra or fultons rifle nowadays!
Indeed that is an excellent barrel, you can see why those where target rifle just by the bore finish from the factory, much more superior then the service rifles standard barrels.
OT, have you ever tryed a L39 or envoy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 4:52pm
This is the same #580 DCRA Long Branch barrel I posted above, after 20 strokes of JB. 

This barrel is every bit as good as any new production Krieger or Bartlien barrel I’ve seen. Much better than war time .303 production. 

The throat: 



About 3 inches forward of the chamber, the rest of the bore looks just like this:



The rifle is a No. 4 Mk 2 PF 212, and in pristine condition.   However, Dad’s shooting friend was struggling to get this rifle to group well. His last experiment was to completely bed the full length of the barrel in glass fiber. If only he knew that the problem everyone was struggling with in the mid 1960’s was sub-standard 7.62 NATO Ball ammo that was entirely the cause of indifferent to poor grouping.  I’ve shot this rifle at 200 and 300 yards with my standard match load (168 SMK and 40.0 gr Varget) and it shoots fantastic, even with the fully bedded forend.  



I’ve now oiled the bore well and put the rifle away.  At some point, I’ll bring it out and test it at long range (800 and 1000 yds).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 5:11pm
I can’t imagine how much could cost to produce a barrel with the same specs today, probably more than an entire rifle in good conditions

This is the barrel of my uf55 no4 mk2 it has about 1000rds thru it, I’m going to JB treat it as well.


It is a very strange bedding indeed, I’ve seen some other dcra fully bedded in other forums.
Same style used on Mauser rifles, does it have any pre load or it just hangs in there?
Let us know how it shoots!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by DarioPirovano DarioPirovano wrote:

I can’t imagine how much could cost to produce a barrel with the same specs today, probably more than an entire rifle in good conditions
 

In 1965, the DCRA conversion done by Long Branch cost $30.00.  That included installing a new Long Branch made 7.62 barrel, adjusting head space as required and proof testing the rifle. I think that even included shipping costs back to the member. 

I have two of these rifles, and the one I have been shooting at long range I have posted the results on the 7.62 Enfield Forum. It’s my best shooting No. 4 rifle. This second DCRA I have not shot enough to know if it’s as good or better than my primary DCRA.

What I don’t know is how the rifling was made, I suspect it is cut or broached, not likely button rifled.  Not hammer forged either.  So, it should be good for perhaps 8,000 rounds before accuracy begins to fall off.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Even though these were target rifles, clearly the cleaning and preserving routine that was used by previous owners was seriously lacking. Not what you might expect from a serious competitive rifle shooter.   

I guess if you are relying on the Mk 1 eyeball a shiny bore screams "job well done".  I was shocked at how back my shiny bore was when I scoped it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 6:32pm
True. You don’t realize how good, or bad, your cleaning method is until you borescope the barrel.  

It’s interesting to see the difference in the bore condition of my two DCRA rifles that were rebarreled about the same time. Dad shot only 5 or 10 rounds thru his, yet it formed mild pitting in the grooves.  His friends rifle was shot more but that bore is pristine.  Perhaps the difference was the storage environment and not the method it was cleaned.  They lived perhaps 10 miles apart, Dads rifles were kept in the basement and no air conditioning in the house. Don’t know where his friend kept his rifle. 

I’ll bet some of us would rather not know what the bore looks like, and perhaps don’t care as long as it shoots well. Then, there are collectors and bore condition does not matter at all. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2024 at 1:01pm
I should get onto the JB clean for my Resistance No4Mk1 this weekend. And some crappy borescope pic's to see how it does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarioPirovano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2024 at 1:05pm
Geoff, at their time they used corrosive primers?
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