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No. 4 Conversion to 7.62 |
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lawndart
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 10:43am |
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That "first-timer gunsmith" jab rubbed me the wrong way. By all mean, please tell me about those "specific reasons". I may not know much about the Enfield, but I'm a mechanical engineer and an 07 FFL. I also spent a good amount of time working in my unit's armory while in the Army. I'm always eager to learn, but am certainly not a "first-timer gunsmith". I've headspaced dozens of rifles, and checked hundreds. The difference in standard Go gauge dimensions between 7.62 NATO and .308 Win is 0.0055", or 5.5 thousandths of an inch. The armorer's Go gauge used for the L42 is actually 2 thousandths shorter than the .308 Win. The one for an FAL is a mere 2.5 thousandths longer. For reference, these variances are roughly what you'd get if you rotated your FL sizing die by 1/32nd of a turn. The differences relate to fits, tolerances, and reliability, not pressures or safety. Yes, you may have a bit more trouble closing your bolt on a dirty, corroded, de-linked Indonesian 7.62 NATO cartridge if you chambered your rifle using a .308 Win Go gauge... But as long as you don't need the ability to blast bottom-shelf military ammo with 100% reliability, .308 Win headspace spec will give you a tighter chamber and higher accuracy potential. That's why the L42 is chambered to an even shorter headspace spec than .308 Win. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the throat. As I mentioned earlier, you need a 7.62 NATO chamber reamer with a properly-dimensioned throat to avoid running into pressure issues caused by the shorter throat/leade of the .308 Win. Also keep in mind that I'm not talking about No-Go or Field gauges. Essentially, .308 Win No-Go and Field gauges tell you nothing when inserted into a 7.62 NATO chamber. But it's important to note that these gauges are simply QC checks in the context of finish-reaming a chamber. You'd be very hard-pressed to ream past a No-Go gauge if you're working carefully and checking often. Now back to the subject of Enfields, where I don't know very much... Were the bolt heads really any different, or were they simply re-proofed as part of the QC process? It would be good to know what proportion of them failed the re-proof, but I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of non-military conversions out there were not re-proofed to military standards. I expect that would only be a factor if you've taken a significant amount of material off your bolt face to set headspace rather than reaming your chamber deeper. Lawndart
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Goosic
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 12:58pm |
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Just to be clear on this subject so as to avoid anymore confusion. My "first timer gunsmith" comment was just that, a comment and should not have been misconstrued and taken as a direct jab towards yourself. It was a generalized comment, nothing more and nothing less...
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lawndart
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 1:12pm |
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Got it, thanks. Sometimes things come across differently over a screen than over a beer. I just want to make sure I don't come across as shade tree Bubba with a hack saw and a hand file! Happy Friday! Steve
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Goosic
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 1:15pm |
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Some of the most famous gunsmiths got started with just a hacksaw and file...
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lawndart
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 1:15pm |
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If only my hands were steady enough...
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britrifles
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 2:30pm |
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Yes, this one is tricky! I checked both my DCRA conversions with .308 Win headspace gages. The bolt closed on the GO gage and was a fair way off from closing on the NO GO gage. Based on this, and the article written by Dave Reynolds, I’ve come to the conclusion that the DCRA 7.62 conversions were set up to .308 chamber specs rather than 7.62. Or, perhaps the Long Branch chamber specs for headspace just happened to be within .308 Win specs, I don’t know. I don’t see much of a downside to setting up a 7.62 barrel on a No. 4 using .308 Win headspace gages. The worse that could happen is a 7.62 NATO cartridge made to the long end of tolerances may not chamber. That cartridge should not be used. Even with the tight chambers in my DCRA conversions, I’ve not experienced this problem with any of the Canadian surplus ball ammo I have shot. Now, the throat leade may be a different issue. I’m not sure what the NATO specs are for the throat leade. |
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lawndart
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Posted: December 16 2022 at 2:58pm |
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Thanks for checking! The leade is longer in a 7.62 NATO chamber. That's what keeps the pressure lower when using the same load in 7.62 NATO vs. .308 Win rifles.
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The Armourer
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 2:04am |
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Which NATO 7.62 headspace gauge are you referring to ? There are actually 12 different sized NATO 7.62 headspace gauges that serve a variety of functions and different rifles from the L8 to the 'mini-gun' and this is why the (NATO) gauges are marked with the rifle model. The Ishapore 2A1 (1.633"-1.642") is very close to L1A1 (1.625"-1.643"), which is not quite the same as the L42 (1.628"-1.635"). The other 'problem' is where the datum point is taken from on the 'tapering neck' - one manufacturer could take it from one position and another from another position - same gauge with different measurements, or quoting the same measurment but the guage is very different. The military STANAG guages all have known datum points, but are the SAAMI gauges using the same datum points ?
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britrifles
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 3:58am |
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The SAAMI .308 Win chamber specs define the headspace datum point at 0.400 inches in diameter at the shoulder. What is the datum for the STANAG gages, are they all different? No wonder there is confusion on this….
All of these issues (differences in .308 vs 7.62) is exactly why I would rather load my own cartridges for my 7.62 Conversions. That way I have control of the pressures I’m comfortable with. I have shot a few hundred rounds of 1959/60/52 Canadian 7.62 Ball ammo, but only for some initial testing and to get the cases for reloading. My loads with military brass are reduced, about 2 grains below minimum .308 Win published data. |
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The Armourer
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 7:39am |
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I have no idea about where the datum is (I just put the correct gauge in and it passed or failed). I know from talking with Peter Laidler that some commercially made gauges that show (say) the same sizes as the STANAG gauges are nowhere near alike - they can only be using a different datum. STANAG 7.62 gauges very rarely escape into the wild, I guess they are still 'on the books' and need to be accounted for.
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Goosic
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 8:33am |
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The STANAG 7.62 gauges I have came from my dad. He was a Base Armourer between 67' & 69"
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Shamu
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 10:16am |
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There was a trick used to index (align) FN-FAL barrels that might work. get some Wet 'n Dry "sanding discs" in various grits & punch or cut out a hole that JUST clears the barrel threads. Slip over the breech end (you decide which face you're sanding, for the FAL its the barrel shoulder) then tighten the barrel on the receiver front just enough top apply some pressure & rotate the disc. Usual recommendation was back & forth a few times about 1/3 turn then 1/2 a turn & repeat. gently apply tension as the abrasive wears down. Remove & check frequently. It might work for a L-E because neither headspace by the standing breech but by the rear of the bolt locking.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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lawndart
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 3:18pm |
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My knowledge about NATO gauges pales in comparison to yours. My only point was that using a .308 Win Go gauge isn't going to cause any danger.
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lawndart
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 3:21pm |
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Thanks for that tip! I'm planning to have a friend with a lathe set the shoulder back for me. It does seem like a bear of a job to do manually.
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Goosic
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 3:36pm |
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You might have to trim the Breech Face back as well. The down and dirty trick is to get the barrel screwed on, "if using a 2A1 or just a plain No1Mk111 barrel" mark the location of were the extractor cut is to be made, remove the barrel, make the cut, and screw everything back together. The barrel knox form,"flat spot" will typically be 180° off but, that doesn't matter in the slightest.
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lawndart
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Posted: December 17 2022 at 4:10pm |
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Thanks. How hard was it to make a new extractor cut? Were you able to do it with a file? I think I'll want to go the method of shortening the shoulder, because finish-reaming the chamber deeper should give me a tighter result. Not sure if it would matter if I'm just neck-sizing my brass, but it seems like a tighter chamber is rarely a bad thing for accuracy potential. Once I have the 2A barrel and the .307 Win case, I will measure the gap between the front of the rim and the rear of the breech face of the barrel. If the see if the gap is smaller than ~35 thou I'll have to take some
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